 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: o2bflat
Date: 2005-09-02 04:22
Hello everyone,
I was very glad to find this BB today, as I have been wanting to find a bass clarinet expert to ask a question, and now I have many experts to talk to. I mainly play soprano, but own a Selmer Low C bass that is only 3 years old. It is a wonderful instrument, but I am by no means an educated bass player!
The problem is this: no matter what bass clar I have ever played, crappy ones as well as good, I have problems with the G, G# and A on top of the treble staff (sorry, would that be G4? I can't ever remember). Those notes will not speak without a lot of effort, and they never feel quite right. Tonguing has to be done verrrrry carefully, or it will squeak and/or grunt.
It does not matter what instrument, mouthpiece, or reed I have tried - it is always the same. Is this a characteristic problem with bass clarinets, or is it me? I have no problems in any other range of the instrument. It's driving me crazy. It makes playing Grand Canyon Suite a real challenge, since it hangs around those notes a lot.
Anyone have any ideas? I am desperate enough even to try freezing my reeds
Thanks,
Diana
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-09-02 04:41
Is this a Leblanc horn with the traditional double octave key (one hole on back, one on neck), or is it one with the "more robust" version? I always had troubles with the robust mechanisms back when I had to use Leblanc horns.
Assuming that you have the traditional one, I'd start by making sure that the pads are seating throughout. Then, if the problem persists, I'd worry about your embouchure as a function of your mouthpiece setup.
Be sure of the leak free status, though, whatever you do.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-02 04:48
Those notes are typically the most difficult on the instrument, but with practice they'll become second nature. Larry Bocaner can explain it best, but I'd say that the key is to keep your throat and oral cavity as open as possible when playing those notes, and your embouchure rock-steady. Use plenty of air pressure (not quantity, but pressure) and blow through the notes -- you musn't let off. Think centered/focused air............
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 05:55
Try using a much softer reed, as soft as possible without losing any tone.
I found on my Buffet the top line F# is a tricky note which does require careful approach, and repeated tongueing on this F# is risky, but from G upwards there's no problem with mine, and getting the reed strength right seems to sort out these problems.
My D series Selmer bass wasn't their best, but the top notes weren't a problem.
Shame the French instruments don't have the extra speaker vent the German instruments have, certainly an extra, well-placed speaker vent will sort out the right hand notes where the upper speaker vent struggles.
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-09-02 08:15
Join the club. You're going to have to coax them. No hard tonguing. Sometimes helps the get the note started before putting on too much air pressure (though that is a bad habit in the sense that you will then always play pear shaped notes, but it is a way of avoiding embarrassment).
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-02 11:22
I've been playing bass clarinet for about four months now.
Just when you think, "Man, I'm sounding good!" out comes some noise from the barnyard.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-02 11:47
I have to disagree with Chris P about using soft reeds -- I don't think that really addresses the problem, and it degrades the sound overall.
But I could be wrong.............
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 11:51
Not too soft that it'll play if held out a window with a light breeze blowing, but as soft as is comfortable - I'm using Vandoren Java 2 (tenor sax) which work well in every register, and this Carbon Toptone Fiberreed that doesn't need wetting.
I've had good results with Plasticovers in the past, but find some of the larger reeds (tenor and baritone especially) don't tend to lie flat, and as they won't absorb any moisture (unless the coating is damaged) they won't seal along the side rails.
My gripe with bass clarinet playing is that composers see it has a good four octave range (at least) and therefore tend to write for it using the range chart, but don't realise that some notes won't attack too well without kicking, and they tend to be the notes they use!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-02 11:58)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-09-02 12:05
After making sure the pads are sealing properly, the only way to get good results on those notes is to practice very diligently. Here are some suggestions for brief exercises. My favorite one, which helps discover how much air pressure and airspeed you need to get them to speak reliably, is to play the fundamental, C, C# and D, and add the register key. Make sure you don't bite to try to get them to speak. Approach the notes by chromatic and by scale, both ascending or descending, first slurred, then articulated from more comfortable or reliable notes. Also, there are expert repairpersons that specialize on working with bass clarinets acoustically to minimize these common issues. Also, the help of an expert bass clarinetist will be invaluable, such as J. Lawrie Bloom, Craig Nordstrom or Ronald Reuben among others.
Good Luck!
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: William
Date: 2005-09-02 14:16
Graham wrote, "Join the club. You're going to have to coax them."
Our local woodwind professor (Eastman DMA grad & former NYC pro) puts it this way, regarding "those" notes--"Instead of attacking them, you must *place* them." Just another way of conceptualizing the approach to these problem notes.
Most important--don't give up hope. By learning to "place" my G# & A5 notes, they have become "no big deal" for me on my Buffet low C bass (and if I can do it, anyone can). Make certain their are no leaks and your double octave is in good working order. Good luck.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 14:24
Fortunately from what I remember, the bass clarinet (Reed 3 part, out of 5 players covering about 16 parts!) playing in 'West Side Story' has quiet, legato phrases in the upper register, and loud, tongued phrases in the low register.
But I'll be practicing (or practising? - Which is the verb - with an 'S' or a 'C'?) the notoriously tricky articulation around the upper F# just to be on the safe side.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-09-02 16:12
I had a similar situation with my Buffet Prestige bass to low C. It really came out when doing Klose's 68 Exercises of Mechanism on page 17 exercise #50.
I described the phenominum as huffing out or stalling when you went to the G. Morrie Backun fixed it in about 5 minutes, it was the lower vent register opening too far and a height adjustment on the upper. It has to do with balancing the air flow no matter what register vent is open. Morrie also told me that some Buffet basses need the lower register vent tube changed.
Although I was told not too my horn seems to speak best with cheap yellow box #2.5 Ricos. I've been using a Grabner CX-BB since almost the beginning with a Rovner ligature. My biggest problem playing the bass is keeping enough slobber on the reed while playing and the horn seems to play best when you totally immerse the reeds in water for 30 minutes before starting.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 16:19
I've found the cheap Rico reeds work well too!
Though my Prestige bass (339xx) works well across the break to Eb, and the switch over from lower to upper speaker vent on E and F aren't a problem, F# is a more troublesome note than G, and from G# upwards there's no problem.
Another thing I had to do was replace all the smaller adjusting screws on the top joint as the original blackened ones were loose, and Howarth oboe adjusting screws (stainless steel with an M2 thread, 2.4mm head) worked a treat, and melted the plastic tipped ones so the ends were domed rather than the funny angle the plastic inserts were cut at to get better adjustment. I see the slightly later model has a better designed linkage with teflon coated top joint connectors, and nicely domed adjusting screws for the bottom joint rather than the synthetic cork and teflon tipped adjusting screws.
I'll tinker with the speaker mechanism to see if I can improve things.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-02 16:35)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-09-02 16:58
That third speaker vent is a long time coming to the French style instruments.
I've never had the pleasure of seeing in the flesh, much less playing a German bass clarinet, but I've known for years the need to better "speak" those middle tones, and that the Germans have taken steps to fix the problem. Too bad the same thing can't be said for the French
You can hear some strange things going on (harmonics and sechlike) from that open lower speaker vent, and you can tell that it's a compromise.
Still, putting in the third hole isn't practical as it stands now.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-02 17:04
That's interesting about the cheap Ricos.
Right now I have some regular Rico 3's and some Grand Concert 3's, and I'm trying to settle on one kind of reed.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-09-02 22:07
One more comment - these notes in particular are very vulnerable to a poorly blanaced reed - and if they're chirping that's almost definitely what's going on. I know you're doubling, but the bigger reeds can get more out of balance.
What is this third speaker vent all you guys are talking about on the German (Öhler system?) basses? Where does it reside?
God knows, it could be a leak in the register key mechanism (or throat notes) - noone has made a foolproof one yet that also had the second bridge key. The Bass's peg makes it very easy to just use your other hand to press down on the pads to make sure that they're sealing well.
I love the "place the note" paradigm that William put forth. However, once you learn to place these notes right, its really no big deal - they are clarion notes and will sound out well, and you'll find that every other clarion note is an absloute breeze to play as the approach is pretty much the right one for the whole register. If you hard core force a note and get a good tone, you're lucky have gotten away with it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 22:23
I've just tried a Vandoren Java 2 with excellent results. I can legato tongue the upper register F# repeatedly but not staccato tongue that note, but the F and G around it can be staccato tongued safely.
The D and Eb have ghost tones of the low register, but C#, C, B and Bb (playing that as low Eb with the speaker key a la full boehm) are clear.
German basses have three speaker vents that work automatically, the lower one for the throat Bb and up to Eb, the middle one for E to G# (which is where the trouble lies on basses as neither speaker vents really work that well here) and the upper one from A upwards.
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Author: o2bflat
Date: 2005-09-04 03:38
No, it's been on a variety of horns. Mine is a Selmer Low C, only 2 1/2 years old and no leaks. But I have the same problem on every bass I play.
Thanks,
Diana
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-09-04 05:21
Speaking of chirping reeds every Vandoren I've ever tried chirped.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-09-04 11:23
Somehow never had any problem with F,#F,G my Buffet Prestige low C.(only 1 year old). Its far more tricky a bit lower (D/F because there the speaker changes automatically), also Eb is tricky to make it sound as open as the other notes, don't know why.
I play on a Selmer E mouthpiece, with Sax.Tenor VD Java or even V16 3/3,5. These reeds seem indeed better than the 'real' VD bass clarinet reeds. I've been told that also Horak is playing them.
I play VD since ages (only used a Grand Concert once) and don't think I'm chirping :-)
I hope I'm not mistaken on the notes you mean. Is it the ones written just on the top lines and sounding in the 440Hz octave ? How do you indicate them as Fx (here we use f')
Post Edited (2005-09-04 11:32)
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-09-04 13:49
Ever since the Selmer Model 33 (Essentially a post-war design) french Bass Clarinet design has converged with LeBlanc being really the only holdout. As a result they all suffer from the same basic problem of register key vent hole spacing.
Basically, the ideal register key location would be 1/3 of the way down to the first open tone hole. The two register hole (speaker vent) system is an attempt to approximate this.
I have heard here that Vandorens are designed to be a little uneven - which would explain that. I never really play them raw so whatever was out of balance I've usually taken care of.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-04 14:33
Do the Buffet Prestige basses made solely for the French market have the water key on the crook (similar to those on the U-bend on all bari saxes)? I've never seen this offered in the UK.
I wouldn't mind one of those on mine, it'll save having to remove the end part of the crook to empty the condensation every now and then.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-09-04 14:57
On my Bass Prestige (the 1193 lastest version) there is no more water key, this was only on the older model. I don't think this system is still offered.
The new bass has the 'two' pieces neck with the alternative angle that resembles a 'normal' clarinet positioning of the mouthpiece.
This newest Buffet Bass is a much better instrument than the previous (with the water key) one, specially the system of the speaker is. Also some other mecanism are a lot better (stronger, less risk for bending them out of shape, by just pushing too hard on them).
We have an older buffet in the school and orchestra and it is a lot more fragile. Some keys hardly close because the 'bridge' can be bent very easily.
Maybe it is possible to still find the old neck, with the water key.But, honest I also was a bit disappoint at first (thinking the key was nice to take out the water), but if the cork is properly treated then also the new system works fine for me
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2005-09-04 16:10
I have found that the lower fundamental notes c, cSharp, d,over- blown to the g, g sharp and a , started with an air before the tongue start also helps voice these notes. I do a Shhhhhh---air followed with a tongue start --the Shhhhhhhhh, or Shaaaaaaa opens the throat and obviously makes the player start the note from no pressure to slight pressure as the air speeds up and the tongue strikes the reed. Also, many bass clarinet players do not take enough reed in the mouth----I actually tongue a good bit below the tip of the reed on the bass to encourage the reed to be inserted farther. Make sure your head is in a slightly upward arch, do not insert the mouthpiece straight into the mouth, tongue a bit deeper, use an air start followed by tongue, and start on the lower fundametals first. Then use the same approach to the upper notes. I also feel that the basic air for the bass is focused a bit farther back in the mouth than the clarinet----middle of the mouth with a bit warmer and less focused air stream for me at least.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-09-04 18:49
Last academic year I (the first I took lessons in playing the Bass) I also needed some special tricks for the low notes.
I couldn't understand that my teacher a great clarinet/bass player and here college a fantastic sax (bari) player where very surprised that they heared me talking about this 'special' head/mouth/ .. position for the low notes.
During summer however I discovered they were right : don't do any special tricks, just play the notes. It 's very difficult to explain, but since a few weeks I don't swivel around my head anymore to play these deeps notes.
The're just notes like all the others, try and 'feel' or 'think' them. They are not so special.
One of the most fantastic things of playing (bass) clarinet is that WE can play these low notes so incredibly ppppp. No one else can !!
Ask the bassoon's they'll pay a fortune to be able to enter as a Bass clarinet can. Just experienced this morning in symphonic orchestra, It's very difficult for them to come even close.
So, let's use the great gift of the instrument,and learn without any effort to make those fabulous low notes.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-04 20:02
Exactly!
Who else can sustain the low concert Bb (our bottom C) better than a bass clarinet?
A contrabass clarinet playing their middle C!
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-09-05 05:56
Belgian - I'm glad you've discovered one of the great secrets of the Bass (that we can play low notes so quietly that they can't be heard all the way up to saxophone volume with full control). Indeed, I learned it from Dave S on this form some years back.
The below Eb notes aren't special - I just find they take a lot of air pressure.
As for the neck thing. AFAIK, making "improved angle" necks was really Charles Bay's first line of business, and he started in the late 70's or early 80's. - the whole idea was to match the Bb clarinet angle - the benefits include making switching easier, and better control over how much mouthpiece one takes, especially as a beginner on the Bass. However, many of us who have been playing for years really just prefer the feel. I don't think it makes a big difference in sound, though.
When I switched from Bb to Bass in 1987, my school had Bay necks (that's all we used to call them because he was the only source of improved angle necks) on their Vito student horns, and most of the other Basses in the district (some Selmer Model 33's at the time for the high schoolers) also had Bay necks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-05 10:50
A Buffet Eb clarinet bell will fit on the bell vent on low-C basses, and does improve the resonance of the low Db and C.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-05 15:01
Dunno, it just happened to be lying around and I thought 'I wonder if ... ' ...
Maybe they ought to market it!
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Author: o2bflat
Date: 2005-09-05 16:49
Thanks to everyone who has offered advice. I will try everything you have said, and get back to you on my results (after giving it a month or two, of course!). Some of the subjects that morphed out of my original one were very interesting and helpful as well. For anyone who didn't see my post that answered what type of bass I am playing, it is a Selmer Low C, about 2 1/2 years old, and other than the notes in question, I get an immense amount of pleasure from playing it!
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