 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tenorchick
Date: 2005-08-26 02:52
How do you guys deal with friends, who after almost a year are still complaining about a director change and refuse to give the new guy a chance?
(See thread entitled "Teacher Leaving-needs advice" for a summary of the director switch).
Things have gotten worse since then and I don't know what to do. Most of my friends continously complain about the current director, then wonder why he seems to "hate" them. They have no respect for him. Several of them claim the only reason they haven't quit Wind Ensemble is because the one other time they could take a band class is the same period as our advanced French class, which they don't want to drop out of.
My tolerance level is running low. These are my really good friends so I don't want to lash out at them and risk us hating each other, but I need some advice.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-08-26 04:27
Hey,
Someone has to conduct/direct.
In that context, the most benefit from the experience can be obtained by trying to play as well as possible. Even with the worst director, an individual can work to make progress in his/er ensemble playing --intonation, phrasing, cooperation with other lines in the score, ...
By focusing on bitching about the director instead of lookinf for self-improvement, your buddies are missing out on an opportunity.
A real opportunity here, now, is much more valueable than some future possibility.
Maybe you can get just one of your colleagues to pursue self-improvement in this context.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-08-26 04:47
Lash out at them, somewhere in their minds they'll know you had your reasons
not the best suggestion but, just saying what I would likely do
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-08-26 07:21
No, Bnatural, yours, as you state, is NOT the best suggestion in my opinion. Lashing out is the worst behavior in any circumstance, and particularly when you're part of a team.
I can only re-enforce in my own words what Bob has already said so well, that, believe it or not, T.C., there are far worse things than a less than stellar-class director. Your "job" is to play the best you're able and lend your full support, help, assistance and encouragement to your director and your fellow players. Anything less will bring reproach on the whole outfit. There is NO room for temperament and complaining. That's a poisonous counterproductive waste of time and misdirected effort and will do nothing to improve anyone's character, musical ability and social development. Those who engage in it are doing themselves (and those who may be looking up to them) a grave disservice.
As trite as it may sound, I recommend a soft-spoken, heartfelt suggestion to "grow up".
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-26 07:36
tenorchick:
It's only high school band.
In the bigger picture it's completely meaningless and has no bearing on your future success or failure as a clarinetist or musician.
Life will go on ...GBK
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-08-26 09:23
Essentially my view is that there are two types of people in the world, those who contribute to solutions and those who contribute to the problem and your friends are in the latter group. You are somewhere in the middle which is not the place to be. You will find people like your friends everywhere in life and they can be very destructive.
If you want to step up and be a leader, a person who contributes to a solution then try this. Next time they go off say something like; "you know, he probably doesn't hate you but a person would have to be a rock not to know how you feel about him. It's pretty hard to like someone who is constantly criticizing you and that's about all you guys have done and I'm pretty tired of hearing it." From then on if they do it again, get up and walk away. Otherwise you are just contributing to the problem.
In a few years you are going to be heading out into the world. Now is as good as time as any to decide what kind of person you want to be; a negative gossip who brings people down or a postive leader because eventually there isn't any room in the middle.
Best
Rick
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-08-26 11:55
GBK—
This time I’ll have to disagree with you. This situation has a lot more import than the question of why reeds don’t last forever.
“It’s only high school—“ that’s like saying “it’s only puppy love.”
High school is formative. This is real life stuff. It’s the same kind of stuff that people face on their jobs. Everybody does. Human relations issues rarely have easy answers. Sometimes all you can do is put up with it for a while.
In some ways the stakes are lower in high school. You don’t have the burden of making a living and raising a family. You’re not stuck there forever. So, maybe what GBK was really trying to do was to lighten the anxiety by making the situation seem less important. It won’t last forever; it will change.
But: In some ways the stakes are even higher in high school, because you are getting ready to make major life choices. The issue here is not so much the situation itself as the way you respond to it. You can let it discourage you and turn you sour or you can use it as a crash course lesson in life. Some people never learn. “Dilbert” offices all over the world are crowded with middle aged big babies.
Right now I am in a most unusual situation. The band director of the local high school quit in late summer, and I am assisting a good friend of mine in working with the band. After this year my friend will probably become the full time band director.
Observing these young men and women during band camp took me back to high school days. It was almost as if I had met everyone before. It really made me realize just how formative band was in my development, not just as a musician, but as a man.
We hear many proverbs about life, but we only learn their true meaning through life experience. “Life’s not fair; get used to it.” I learned that truth when our band went to marching competition expecting a 1, and we got a 3. Granted, that was “only a competition,” but the disappointment was real and palpable; the experience was a turning point.
You will never forget high school band. I wish for you that the good memories will outweigh the bad, and that the difficulties you face will only make you stronger.
Post Edited (2005-08-26 11:57)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-26 12:17
Tenorchick, show them your pimp hand.
Get em in line - they need an attitude adjustment.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-26 14:55
Markael wrote (in part):
> Sometimes all you can do is put up with it for a while.
> “Life’s not fair; get used to it.”
Exactly...
As stated - in the over all picture of life (and musical) experiences, high school band, for most people carried little or no weight and certainly had no bearing to later success or failure.
There will soon come much bigger challenges, both personal and academic. High school decisions will be petty by comparison.
Did we all have to make musical choices in high school? Were we scarred for life? Did we all somehow live to tell about it?
For some, like myself, high school band is just a distant memory, not because of years gone by, but through more substantial and formative musical experiences which followed.
Sometimes it is like the "can't see the forest for the trees" analogy. In a few years, when firmly entrenched in college, this seemingly major problem will be nothing more than a mild annoyance...GBK
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-08-26 17:32
I also must say that I disagree with you on this one, Glen. I don't for one moment believe that you got where you are, and achieved what you have today, by not building on what you learned earlier. Rick has said it better than I can but I feel strongly that I must throw my two-cents worth into the discussion.
In the bigger picture this issue is meaning-ful. Ideas and attitudes formed in gradeshcool and highschool stay with people -- forever; for better or for worse. If we don't learn mutual respect and social skills during our formative years life is going to be one long struggle, whatever your field of interest. Lack of respect and apathy toward authority is one, if not the number one problem and drawback to student achievement in our schools today. Tenorchick's situation, and how it's addressed, has everything to do with success or failure in our young people's futures. Meaningless? I really don't see it that way. I see it as highly destructive toward one's own concept of self worth and ability to make a positive contrubution toward any worthwhile goal. If this issue doesn't matter, then the next thing won't matter, and pretty soon nothing else will matter....
- ron b -
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-08-26 18:04
Of course, this issue has nothing to do with band or clarinet. It has to do with life, adapting to change, and maturity. You and your friends are reaching that point in life that parents (and society in general) hope to see a transition from self-centeredness to mature behavior. Granted, it usually only comes in fleeting glimpses through high school, but it's gratifying to see it happen.
Help your friends to see that their behavior is not helping - it will not bring the old director back and it will not improve the current director's outlook toward them. It's time to get on with life . . . and life right now includes this director. You don't have to lash out; this is really a logical situation with a logical solution. Their actions are wasted effort. Make sure you don't waste time with them.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-08-26 18:26
Markeal,
Your comment "High school is formative. This is real life stuff. It’s the same kind of stuff that people face on their jobs." Is very interesting but IMHO not accurate.
HS is not the real stuff. When I graduated almost a 1/2 century ago, I still remember my first few days in college and I said to myself "self, this is nothing like HS." What might have been a formative event in HS was nothing like university life or being in the military (shortly thereafter) and then the world of work.
The immature stuff like Tenorchick's friends giving the director a hard time (a loosing situation) is nothing like the world of work. You start doing that on the job and you will be unemployed very quickly.
My advice to Tenorchick is to distance herself from her friends on this issue (she can tell them where she stands and if that breaks a friendship, it was not very strong to begin with). I see the work "hate" being used by TC in several phrases; she and her friends probably do not know how inappropriate the use of that word is in that situation.
I have, as an adult, always believed in the Rules of the Office: Rule #1 The Boss is Always Right; Rule #2 If The Boss is Ever Wrong, See Rule #1. Always making my boss look good has never failed me. I think TC's friends are the problem here.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-08-26 19:11)
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Author: george
Date: 2005-08-26 18:54
My high school band director was a [snipped - GBK] so I simply quit high school band after a couple of years. Did I quit playing? No, of course not. I played in local dance and jazz bands, the community orchestra, and several other groups. After high school, I played in my college band. What's the big deal? If you're not happy in your high school band, get out.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-08-26 19:59
Hank, you make good points and you’re right, but I still stand by what I said. Sure, high school is not “for keeps” in quite the same way as the job world and the military.
But, in the first place, people can always find ways to undermine authority. If they can’t complain openly they will do it in passive aggressive ways. A lot of the crap in the work world is no more mature than it was in high school, just more cunning and creative. And the first class jerks don’t get fired; they get promoted.
Secondly, lines of authority are sometimes ambiguous and often complex. I’m a lifelong civilian, but this seems to be somewhat true even in the military, where you have, for instance, seasoned sergeants working with second lieutenants.
Third, it is too easy for adults to minimize the importance of the worlds of childhood and adolescence. I mentioned the story about getting a 3 at contest because of the profound effect it had on me. The fact that it was only a competition was almost irrelevant; it affected me more deeply than later adult experiences that “counted” much more.
Finally, the basic issue truly is a real life issue: how to maintain a sense of loyalty to flawed authority without being a kiss-up, and without compromising your own integrity. You can’t tell young people that you are training them to be leaders, and to stand up for what they believe in, and then turn around and say that the issues they are dealing with don’t really matter.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-08-26 21:33
When Tenorchick speaks about her friends thinking the director hates them, it reminds me of my daughter when she was in high school. She was at times convinced that her orchestra director hated her, but whenever I spoke to the director, whom I informally knew, she had nothing but good things to say about my daughter. In fact, she was the one that nominated my daughter for a "Student of the Month" award she received.
Sometimes teachers seem like they "hate" someone by being demanding. And they are demanding because they are just trying to get them to put more effort into their studies because they want the students to learn and grow. (Somewhat like parents.) And someone tries to get a student to improve because they care about the student. Close to the opposite of hate.
Conversely, when hate someone, you usually try to ignore them.
Tenorchick, I don't know if you can get this across to your friends, but I'm sure it makes sense to you.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-26 21:53
I just think the word 'hate' is banded about a bit too freely - it's too strong an emotion and too strong a word to use in petty, everyday circumstances, whereas 'dislike' is more acceptable.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-26 21:56
It's pretty safe to say that the Director really dislikes the kids actions. They need an attitude adjustment.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-26 22:01
Then I could go and ruin it all by saying they need taken outside and given a good slap!
Only joking.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-27 00:07
One thing you might try is sitting down with the problem people, privately, and asking them what they want to have happen. At each stage, try to get them to be as specific as possible. Ask them (not in a judgmental tone but just asking for information) *why* they want this particular thing to happen (what's in it for them; what's in it for the group; what good would it do) and then ask them, "What can you do to make that happen?" Get them focussing on specific actions they can take or that they want someone else to take, instead of just random moaning and groaning. I'll bet that by being persistent, you can get them to figure out for themselves that their attitude could be more constructive.
I mean "constructive" fairly literally: what chain of events can they construct that's different from and better than what they've got? It's possible that it's never occurred to them to *ask* the director for specific, realistic solutions to definable problems. For instance, instead of a very broad, unfocussed generalization, such as, "He just ignores us!" maybe you can encourage them to tackle definable parts of that problem, one step at a time: "Could you please cue our entrance at bar 87?"
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-08-27 12:24
I don't want to make this into more than it is, but I think people who feel HS isn't "real world" are missing one point and that is HS for those there is as real as it gets. It certainly is for the students and teachers. In the real world if you goof off at work you get fired. In HS you don't get the grade which means you may not get the scholarship or accepted to certain colleges. Now which has a more profound effect in a person's life?
People I knew in HS and college who thought it was ok to lie and cheat were simply liars and cheaters. People who were nasty gossips and disruptive in school are not significantly different when they grow up, just less obvious about it. People who find it easy to quit when things get tough in school find it equally easy to do so as adults.
HS is simply the time when a person is first given enough freedom to begin choosing which of life's paths they are going to begin following and that certainly does count and it is real world.
Best
RW
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-08-27 14:12
Amen, Rick.
Pardon me if I’m hogging this thread. Sometimes it’s best to say one’s piece and then shut up. But the more I think about it, the clearer this picture gets.
After ten, twenty, thirty years many people still have “issues” about high school reunions.
If you go to public school you learn to deal with people with diverse interests, outlooks, and backgrounds. For people who go on to an exclusive college and then to a specialized field, high school may be their most accurate first hand view of a cross section of society.
You’re still forced to deal with some things that you may be able to avoid later in life, such as locker rooms.
You think the workplace has rules? High school has changed a lot in the last thirty years. You might be shocked to go back.
High school and the status of being a minor also shelter people from some of the harsher realities of the “real world.” This is the paradox. But after all, isn’t the “real world” itself filled with paradox and inconsistency? Middle class realities are different from street realities. Wealthy people in highly competitive businesses have their own set of problems.
Even the military, which exposes people to drill sergeants, danger, and death, also shelters people in unique ways. I was once in an employee orientation group with a retired Air Force chaplain. He was clueless about how to fill out a health insurance application.
“Real world” stress, good or bad, can have a good result: It builds character. But if you want to demoralize someone, old or young, it doesn’t matter, convince the person that the very real stress he/she is experiencing is inconsequential or silly. Maybe in the long run, in the big picture, it will become inconsequential. It still matters.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-27 14:42
In my opinion, still being in high school, high school is just a simulation of what real life is like. It's not 100% like real life, no. In real life you have much more to worry about than homework, boys, evil band directors or teachers, etc... Every bandie I hang out with makes such a big deal of marching band that it's ridiculous. It's like we almost sold our soul for a few months, when I only wanted to do it for fun. Their views on reality are distorted, because high school is their reality. High school for me is a way to escape reality.
So... As for coping with the new band director, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Sure your friends may not respect him, but they have their own opinions and most times you can't change their minds. So, like some other people said, tell them where you stand. Maybe they'll follow you, who knows.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-27 15:04
High School isn't even remotely close to "real life". It's just just kids acting like kids and trying to grow up the best that they can.
But it isn't much like living as a grown up.
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