 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-08-22 21:19
Hi, I searched both via Google and your archives for a flute bulletin board and nothing comes close to this board. While congratulations are in order, I still am looking for a place to get information about purchasing a used flute. Does anyone know of a place, like this, where a question about flutes can be posted and folks will answer? Thanks.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-08-22 23:08
There is 'Flute Chat' at http://www.superflute.com/
However there seems to be inordinate instrument snobbery there, along with a fair bit of rather sickly Galway-worship, but more disturbing, it seems (to me) that any post that interferes with the marketing interests of some professional marketing guys associated with the forum gets deleted, and even the poster, including myself, banned without explanation. However there seem to be some quite knowledgeable players who go there. It is unfortunate that you are likely to get the impression that any flute that costs less than megabucks, and does not have the current fashion in rather meaningless (in practical terms for most players) features, is sneered at.
There used to be one at http://flute.com/index.htm but it was killed by the havoc wreaked by unscrupulous writers in a completely uncontrolled, unmoderated environment. Most people there migrated to.....
There is http://www.8notes.com/f/forum25.asp
Unfortunately this place tends to be dominated by rather few people who know rather little, but spout forth as if they were experts on everything. It also has a great deal of friction between personalities. I would not go there for serious advice on issues such as choosing a flute. The advice is likely to becoming form a 14 year-old who is spouting forth what her teacher said as if it were from the voice of God. This forum is a lot less controlled than 'superflute', but it is reassuring that a moderator does lurk if posts get out of control. (Click on "report this post")
You may find others, particularly email-based ones, via http://www.flutes.tk/
The flute section of the saxophone forum already referred to, at least has a reasonably rational, down-to-earth membership. Perhaps its downfall is not a wide enough range and quantity of people with expertise to present a full spectrum of expertise. It may be as good as you get.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-08-23 00:44
Here may be the best place, Brenda. Quite a few doublers are frequent visitors and may have the advice you're looking for. My personal experience with the well known auction facilitator has been... not great, but pretty good. If you do your own repairs you can make some fairly good deals there.
If you want good ol' down to earth discussion about flute playing, Gordon also offered a great post about that - truly, a doubler's delight Maybe someone has the link, I don't at the moment.
If you're considering a purchase I think the same advice holds true for new flutes as to clarinets. Don't bother with those *new* ones offered at very 'reasonable' [cheap!] prices. There's a lot of cheap junk out there :( I've been pleased with the results I've had with student models Bundy, Vito, Haynes and Artley. Opinions may vary widely....
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-08-23 01:46
The links Ron refers to take you from the home page of 'the' sax forum (already mentioned) to:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/FluteLessons2.html
and
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/FluteLessons.html
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-23 02:23
There are two major flute groups.......flutenet.....which you get to through Yahoo groups...........the other is Larry Krantz.....through his website.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-08-23 02:26
The reason I'm asking the question is that I am taking some flute lessons myself, and need an inexpensive flute on which to practice. I teach elementary band and flute has always been my weakest point. This summer I've been working on that. I'm borrowing an instrument now, but it needs work and doesn't belong to me, so I really need to get something for myself.
A student level instrument is fine, I think, but it needs to be in good playing order. I am reluctant to utilize the well-known auction facilitator mentioned earlier, unless I know that the seller has had the instrument serviced and it is in playing condition. That doesn't seem to be very frequent.
So I will check out the sites you've indicated. Meanwhile, all you doublers, any suggestions?
Thanks -
Sue Tansey
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-08-23 08:54
It will be many hundreds of hours practice before a student Yamaha is a limiting factor. They are well made and very consistent. There are many brands I could not say that for.
Be aware that if you go for second hand, not all overhauls are equal; some are awful, and need re-doing.
Otherwise, no problem with newish second hand, but ANY flute should be thoroughly checked and adjusted before learning on it. Even the majority of new flutes need attention straight away or in the first year before they reliably play at their best.
Be careful how you choose a technician - ask several long-established players/teachers in your area - and be careful with flutes that are say older than 10-15 years. There have been big improvements in head design which now make some student flutes play a lot better, and SOME manufacturers are taking a very long time to catch on.
IMHO
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-08-23 13:52
Thanks, Gordon. Sounds like good advice. I will start the search.
Sue Tansey
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-08-23 14:01
Gordon, there seem to be many model numbers for Yamaha. Are there any that you could specifically identify? Do you know whether their model numbers vary for different regions?
Sue Tansey
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Author: D
Date: 2005-08-23 20:29
When I was buying a few years ago I think 211 was normally the standard for a student yamaha. 311 is the same body but with a silver head.
However this site seems to have some explanations of modern designations. No idea how acurate they are.
http://www.custommusiccorp.com/flute/yamaha.html
Playing on a student instrument is a good idea, because it will show you exactly what your students are up against.......actually, on second thought, get one at a garage sale then let the dog have a go. Then you will get an accurate reflection of what some of your students are trying to play on.
The first flute I had was a Buffet of some sort that my parents bought me without getting any advice or help from anyone except the guys in the music shop. I guess they did pretty well compared to what they could have come home with. Except that there was actually a manufacturing fault with the bottom joint which wasn't spotted until I was on my second teacher (first one proved much less than satisfactory) over a year later. I got a beaten up old Yamaha and was able to play all the notes. What a revelation! I never knew bottom C and C# where actually supposed to make a noise. As you teach band I am sure you know this already and tell all your students, but it probably bears repeating because the most obvious things are most easily forgotton. - When you buy an instrument in a store try and get someone there to play it to prove that all the notes will come out. Similarly, I think teachers should all check their students instruments. Then no one would be in the situation I was in for a year.
Have a great time flute hunting and teaching the kids, you are much braver that I ever could be. The sword fighting with clarinets that goes on in the local community band totally puts me off!
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Author: D
Date: 2005-08-23 20:35
I was wrong, they still make the 211, 311s
http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_europe/uk/10_musical_instruments/20_orchestra/10_woodwind/20_flutes/index.html
The american site splits it up more and goes into more detail.
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Catalog/Catalog_GSMOCX/0,,CTID%253D236900%2526CNTYP%253D,00.html
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-23 20:55
Flutenet is the much, much more reasonable group. The one that Krantz runs is like friggin kindergarten with their overmoderation.
"the right to free speech" doesn't exist there (he's from Canada).......
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-08-23 21:55
Yamaha model numbers are not too complicated.
The first digit refers to grade of flute, eg how much of it is solid silver, pointed key arms, lack of regulating screws, type of pivot screw, material of springs, etc - much of it little more than cosmetic!
'2' is the basic student flute
'3' is the same but with a sterling silver head.
'4' is the same but with a sterling silver body as well
etc to '9'.
The second digit is a consistent code which refers to combinations of three features:
- Covered keys, or open-hole.
- In-line G, or off-set G
- The presence or absence of split E mechanism.
i.e.
'1' = covered keys, off-set G
'2' = covered keys, off-set G, split E.
'6' = ring keys, off-set G
'7' = ring keys, off-set G, split E
'8' = ring keys, in-line G
'9' = ring keys, in-line G, split E.
For all but very accomplished players doing note bending, polyphonics, and such techniques, for example in modern music, there is no point in open hole, although in USA most non-basic flutes are open hole.
Especially for a doubler, in-line G is not a good idea, especially in conjunction with open hole. For almost all players, it makes the flute less ergonomic.
Especially for a doubler, split E offers considerable help in playing third octave E.
The third digit refers to the design 'pitch', eg '1' = A442. There is large variability of pitch with air temperature and how loud one is playing. The player must learn to compensate in an ongoing manner while playing, so small variations in design pitch are not too relevant.
It is possible that this third digit may refer to some other issue in more recent times. I am not sure whether '5' refers to pitch or something else, say country of manufacture.
IMO the basic model, 221 or 211 is a fantastic flute. You have to pay several times as much before you get to a model that plays significantly better. The silver body does not make a big difference. I don't know at what 'grade' one gets a superior design of head, which DOES make a difference. The student flute has a great head, enabling the student models to play better than many top professional models of several decades ago.
A web site that provides good info on models is
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/index.htm
Remember to click on 'specifications' for a TABLE of the various models
Post Edited (2005-08-23 21:58)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-08-24 00:32
Gordon, thank you so, so much. This is more information than I have ever accumulated in one place about the flute, Yamaha or not. You have been such a help to me.
Thank you, thank you.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-24 12:43
Great info, folks, all I have to add is a "cavaet" . My excellent-repairer brothers firm in Tulsa recently rejected "looking at" a Heimer [Asian?] flute, purchased cheaply I'm sure. I may get a look-see, prob. a no-touchee, will report if I have a significant thing to say. It is listed in GBK's maker's post in the "Other Clarinets" thread. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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