 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: IndigoClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 00:17
I just opened two new boxes of reeds, one of Vandoren Traditional 4s and one Vandoren V12 4s, and all the reeds were greenish-colored. In my experience (though I'd love to see other opinions on this), greenish-tinged reeds tend to give me bad response. This is not the first time this has happened to me with Vandorens, so I'm a bit frustrated and looking for solutions.
1) What causes green cane?
2) Do green reeds play better and/or yellow out if you shelve them, untried, for 2 or 3 years?
3) Is there a brand of high-quality reeds that does not present this problem?
4) Any other relevant advice?
Thanks!
R
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 00:19
It's no secret that Vandoren cane is aged far less than it was in previous generations.
You now have definite proof...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-08-24 00:29
1) The cane isn't aged/dried enough before it's put through the cutting process. Basically it's too fresh.
2) Some people recommend aging boxes of reeds for a few years. One 'technique' I heard was to buy two boxes every time you need reeds. Open one, and date and place one in your closet/shelf/wherever. After three years, start cycling through the boxes in your closet, replacing and dating them as you go.
3) I never had a problem with Gonzalez reeds, and this actually (if you search for some reviews of Gonzalez FOF reeds when they came on the market) was one of the things customers liked about them. The seemed well-aged.
4) I'd try making a switch. I like gonzalez. To be honest, for what I play clarinet for, I'll use anything, so long as it's wood. But the ones I've liked the best are Gonzalez and V12. And if you are frustrated with the V12, that to me leaves you with ONE option . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 00:44
Gonzalez reeds are marked with the harvest date of the cane.
The last boxes of Gonzalez FOF reeds I received from Phil Shapiro at Davie Cane were a mixture "Harvest of 1998" and "Harvest of 1999" reeds.
When I used Vandoren reeds exclusively, I found that keeping the reeds a minimum of 6 months (date the boxes when you buy them) seemed to improve their playability. Purchase 50% more than you currently need and start storing/aging your reeds.
Currently I am using a mixture of Gonzalez FOF reeds (1998/1999) and Vandoren traditional reeds from the 1980's and early 1990's...GBK
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-08-24 03:40
Ahhh...but GBK, do you have any old Morres still hanging around? And can I trade you my house for them? 
Katrina
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 04:00
Katrina wrote:
> Ahhh...but GBK, do you have any old Morres still hanging
> around? And can I trade you my house for them?
Actually I do have some Morrés left.
As I may have written before, as a treat to myself, I take out one a year, on my birthday.
I figure, I have just enough to last me until the end finally comes.  ...GBK
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-08-24 06:58
When the reeds are greenish-coloured, then they haven't be supposed enough to the sun... They are aged and dried long enough. It's because of the shadow that they are greenish-coloured.
Try the ATG system to work on the response, then you will see that the reed will function just as good as a "normal" coloured one.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-24 10:50
(Disclaimer - I am the maker of genetically enhanced Arundo Donax Musicalis reed cane)
Through my limited experience at harvesting and preparing several crops of reed cane I can offer two reasons for green colored cane. The first is that cane is harvested too late in the season and spring growth has already caused the cane to green up at the time of harvest (this cane may never turn totally yellow with sun drying), and cane was dried outdoors during a very cloudy period where sun bleaching has not fully turned the cane to yellow. I have know way of knowing the conditions under which the Vandoren cane was treated but at cane auctions the green colored cane is sold for much less money than yellow cane of the same overall characteristics. As mentioned earlier most of the cane destined for reeds by several large reed manufacturers is purchased at auction from plantations located all over France, Spain, and several other "Mediterranean Rim" countries. The best colored (which may not be the best for reed quality), dense, fully aged cane sells for the highest price. In any year's auction a whole region may have lower quality cane due to environmental abberations for a particular 2 year cane growing cycle.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-08-24 11:38
Hello,
Interesting!
The Doctor knows best!
My frustration with reeds caused me to switch brands about 2 years ago and now I try to not even say the V word anymore.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 12:07
I usually buy Mitchell Lurie Premiums for clarinet in Bb and in A, so I rarely see a green reed for soprano clarinet. Most of the MLPs are speckled tan. But I've played quite a few green reeds on my larger clarinets and on saxophones, and my experience has been that the green color doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how well the reed plays. (I'm talking about a pale greenish-golden or greenish-tan tone; I've never seen a reed that was grass green or anything close to that.) I haven't found that the greenish reeds are more or less likely to last a long time, either.
I think maybe the speckled color does indicate favorable growing conditions, but the factors I've found that definitely make a major difference in playing quality are: straight vs. wavy grain, regularly-spaced vs. irregularly-spaced grain, and thick vs. fine grain. I've always found that unusually coarse grain is bad news, that irregularly thick/thin grain is worse news, and that the mixture of wavy with unevenly thick grain is the worst of all, especially if the wave extends all the way up to the tip of the reed or if it looks knotted at any point, as seen from the flat side of the reed. Usually the wavy grains are the extra-thick ones, and when that's the case, the reed squeaks and there's not a thing that can be done to fix it. Might as well just try it out once to make sure and then toss it in the trash.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ishikawa Naoki
Date: 2005-08-24 16:47
1.)Go to http://www.vandoren.com and click on enter. Choose language...
2.) Towards the upper right click on Slide Show and choose the making of reeds. This is the best information on reed production I have found to date.
To qoute " The canes are then "sunned" to give the cane its golden color. It is not a drying process and dosen't affect the quality of the sound, but just an esthetic step. This operation lasts about 3-4 weeks."
After careful perusing of this wonderful website, I now have a new found understanding of the process. Very helpful...Thanks Vandoren!
Ishi
Post Edited (2005-08-24 16:49)
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 17:00
This quote is just for advertisement, Mr. Ishikawa. This cannot be true. They can be lazy sometimes, and we get such bad reeds which IndigoClarinet described.
I lately ordered 8 boxes of Vandoren V12 from music store, hope these are nice.........
Grand Concert Evolution is working better than V12 right now, though. I played them at music festival just few weeks ago. Worked fine with me.
Someone said that Rico Grand Concert is good practice reed......I disagree. Good "Concert" Reed, I think.
RosewoodClarinet
Post Edited (2005-08-24 17:58)
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-08-24 17:34
genetically enhanced Arundo Donax Musicalis reed cane !!!
Please elaborate Doctor, we geneticists would like to know more!
Joanne
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Author: Ishikawa Naoki
Date: 2005-08-24 17:44
To quote Rosewood: "This quote is just for advertisement, Mr. Ishikawa.
This cannot be true. They can be lazy sometimes, and we get such bad
reeds which IndigoClarinet described." Now...
Tell me this, did you go to the site? Did you review the material that 100
years of research and development have yeilded? Or do you make it up on
the fly. Seems like what works for Combs, Estrin, Yeh, Smith, Weber,
Montanaro, Raden, Manasse and even Eddie Daniels works for me. These
are supurb reeds. And besides the question was why is a reed
green. The answer is, that is it's color. Not what you played on and where!
Ishi
Post Edited (2005-08-24 17:52)
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 18:05
(Disclaimer - the Arundo Donax - Musicalis clone and tissue culture techniques are for sale)
We, LBD Corp. and consultant plant geneticists, have developed an Arundo Donax - Musicalis subspecies by sequencing and identifying coding sequences and gene splicing alterations for specific traits from several (12) wild type Arundo Donax species canes from all over the world. These enhanced traits include: more uniform growth habit (size and diameter of average cane culm), increased internode distance, certain cane density characteristics, freeze protection, faster growth rate, certain surface characteristics, etc.. We have also perfected a tissue culture regeneration system for producing transplants for large plantings rather than using current methods employing root divisions (since seed is not viable). Two successive two year old cane crops have been harvested and processed from test plots located here in Georgia, US.
There is still research to be done and harvested cane is for demonstration purposes only.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-24 18:06
Mr. Ishikawa, it is the matter of taste, not comparison. Also, you need to be cool. I usually go any websites regarding clarinets and reeds, they say similar things for their advertisement. The difference is which one works better with me. Each individuals make their own decision. Works, or don't work. Black and White. This simple.
There are great clarinetists who choose different equipments and who sounds great anyway on any of them.
You seem like very passionate or I should say very agressive. You need to calm down yourself.......
RosewoodClarinet
Post Edited (2005-08-24 18:21)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-24 18:31
Ishikawa Naoki wrote:
> Seems like what works for Combs, Estrin, Yeh, Smith, Weber,
> Montanaro, Raden, Manasse and even Eddie Daniels works for me.
Despite what the web site states, some of the above named artists are using reeds which are not only by Vandoren.
That is a fact ...GBK
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-08-24 19:10
Nice work, Doctor. If you need an independent peer review of your demo harvest, count me in!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-24 19:33
" Seems like what works for Combs, Estrin, Yeh, Smith, Weber,
Montanaro, Raden, Manasse and even Eddie Daniels works for me. These
are supurb reeds. And besides the question was why is a reed
green. The answer is, that is it's color. Not what you played on and where!
Ishi"
---------------------------------------
Uh, that would be why those players (and myself included) go through a box of Vandorens and find 2-3 good reeds out of 10 on a great day. The cane is often not properly and fully seasoned among other problems.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-08-25 00:36
I find only 1 or 2 (if I'm lucky...) good reeds per box from Vandoren reeds......
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: Andrewcn
Date: 2005-08-25 01:30
I too got fed up with only finding 3 good reeds in a Vandoren box. I now use Vintage reeds made by Reeds Australia, and find them really consistent and useable. They are perhaps half a size harder than the corresponding Vandorens, but maybe that's just me. Here's a quote from a local newpaper (The Advertiser (Adelaide), 29/7/05 ) (I have nothing to do with Reeds Aust, btw)
"The legendary Branford Marsalis used a Vintage clarinet reed when he performed the Copland Clarinet Concerto on soprano sax here in Adelaide and in Sydney recently. When he arrived in Adelaide, he purchased some of these reeds at a local repair shop, and was impressed enough to use one that evening for his performance of the Copland, with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra. There was little time to break the reed in, but it coped with the extreme demands of the concerto flawlessly….
I met him after this most memorable concert, and he seemed very happy. A very friendly and approachable guy too! He said his usual brands of reeds were not working for him in this difficult concerto, so he’d been on the look out for something new.
Now he’s back in the US and is still using Vintage (file-cut) #3.5 and #4 clarinet reeds on his soprano sax.. We’ve never known any one to use a clarinet reed on soprano, but Branford said players are starting to do this, and the extra length doesn’t matter, he said. He’s playing a Selmer D mouthpiece, on a Selmer Mk 4 saxophone."
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-25 15:48
I keep some Vandorens around for experimenting with mouthpieces that don't work well with other reeds, but Vandorens aren't my favorites, because they're too variable for mouthpieces I know well. I've had the same experience others describe, of being able to use only one or two in a box. Maybe a different person would choose two different reeds from the same box; I think a lot of this stuff is personal preference rather than truly defective reeds. Bottom line, though, is that I can't afford such waste. I want to use all the reeds in a box, and that means I want consistency. For me, that's Mitchell Lurie Premiums on any mouthpiece they'll fit.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-08-25 23:47
Which just goes to show you how subjective reed selection really is... As most boxes of Mitchell Lurie (premium or otherwise) have given me very few usable reeds. But most boxes of V12s (my current reed of choice) will play 6 or 7 of 10, which isn't bad at all.
As for the green... it's bound to happen with a company as large as Vandoren that something slips past quality control. I guess you could either return the box or buy another and let the green ones age longer.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-26 00:15
"I guess you could either return the box or buy another and let the green ones age longer."
-------------------------
Neither work - green won't turn and reeds are never returnable. Of course you could just sell em on EBAY
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-08-26 01:02
Would the green go away if you put them on your windowsill and they got some sun every day for a while? Or would they just sprout little Arundo donax shoots?
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DavieCane01
Date: 2005-08-28 02:36
Greenish reeds are a sign of cane harvested before it is ready. Period. Though cane is essentially fully grown size-wise after the 1st year, it is still immature. Besides the green color, the more serious problem is that the fiber structure is not fully developed. Most companies that will make reeds from this cane find some method of bleaching the green out so the reeds look more ecceptable. Cane, properly grown, is ready for harvest at the end of the 2nd year of growth. Its color should be golden yellow at this time. Sun drying is exactly that. While there may be marginal effects on color, the purpose of this step is to dry the cane slowly, thereby preventing damage to the fibers. Storing cane will allow it more time to dry, and dryer cane is more stable cane, especially as seen from a makers point of view. Drying may allow reeds made from immature cane to perform slightly better, but nothing can replace the missing fiber structure. Therefore, if your reeds are green, putting them away for a year or two might make them a bit more playable for a short time, but they will never be the same quality as reeds made from properly grown cane.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-28 20:51
Not to contradict my astute collegue but it depends on what part of the world your cane is growing. I am sure that Phil was observing the Argentine cane from atop his horse in gaucho attire and indeed the Argentine cane harvested in mid-winter is almost golden yellow. In different climates like the South of Spain or France it can be pale yellow to greenish yellow at winter harvest time and sun drying does indeed turn it more golden yellow. I have been atop my Schwin bike wearing shorts in the Var Region of France during cane harvest and drying. The cane must be at least two years old to harvest good reed quality cane and one year old cane does have a distinctly more green coloration than second year cane and never really turns the golden yellow color, and has not developed mature density. The speckling on cane comes from fungus growth as the outer culm covering and leaf rot soon after harvest but in no way affects the cane for reed production - good stripping at harvest almost eliminates speckling. In Georgia, US it is a little more tricky because we have bouts of warm weather in January that may trick the cane into leaving dormancy and turn it green quickly. Late November usually is the best time here to harvest truly dormant cane.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: DavieCane01
Date: 2005-08-29 03:20
Really? I had no idea that cane could go back towards a greenish state; and in all my time associated with Gonzalez have never heard this before. Is this true for all variants of the species and is it a regional phenomenon? I'd like to understand the mechanics of this better. But, faithful readers, if The Doc says it's so then it's got to be fact as far as I'm concerned.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-29 10:52
Cane of course does not change in diameter once a culm thrusts its way through the ground - a 1" diameter culm will remain 1" forever. The first year, if growing conditions are right, will reach near maximum height (depends on the subspecies and environment) and will usually have only one set of opposing leaves at each internode - and will be green. During dormancy (and this is regional and environmentally determined) the outer culm cover and leaves will turn brownish yellow and the cane a greenish yellow. During the second year with the growth flush there will be several leaves at the internode, the cane may grow slightly taller, and the cane density increases (the cane outwardly is green at this point). During the second year dormancy the leaves and calm cover turn the same brown but the cane itself is a yellow to golden yellow color. There are different subspecies ranging from dwarf (to about 6 feet high) to monsterous (close to 40 feet high) with various differences in other attributes - e.g. the freeze safe mechanism. The most common cane used for reeds is a wild type found in many regions surrounding the Mediterranian which was likely imported from Asia >5,000 years ago. Arundo Donax in the US was brought here by the Spanish and Italian visitors.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-08-29 17:49
A scientist on a Schwinn bike in France, wearing what kind of shorts?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-08-29 23:56
The roads back to the cane fields would not acommodate the rented Pugeot so I bartered for a bike rental, a liter of wine, a fresh loaf of bread, and what can I say - it is Southern France!
L. Omar Henderson
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