 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-08-23 04:29
Has anyone had any dealings with this C.S.O? I just found that Costco.com has it listed along with a sax, flute, and trumpet.
The woodwinds are under the name "Paramount Sonatina," while the trumpet is listed as "Mt. Vernon" to (ab)use the history of the Mt. Vernon Bachs from the past.
-pat
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-08-23 04:50
NEVER BUY AN INSTRUMENT FROM COSTCO or any other grocery store/appliance and etc... I bought an "Atlantis" Clarinet from them and the 2nd year, 2 keys broke off, and it was really sad. Plus you're screwed unless you can repair a clarinet yourself ;if it breaks.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-23 04:56
Robert Marcellus used a Paramount Sonatina clarinet during his entire tenure at Cleveland.
At the urging of Acker Bilk and Woody Allen he grudgingly switched to a Buffet ...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-23 06:33
Let me tell you that Buffet is NOT an expensive instrument brand ... just ask the NY Phil's concertmaster (or any other concertmaster for that matter) what he/she paid for their violins ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-08-23 07:17
Actually, BFC, according to my people, professional undercover informants, Mr. Marcellus' Cleveland era clarinet was a so-called and little understood 'no-name' "Paramount" STENCIL instrument, produced under strict Top Secret conditions after hours by Sparrow Industries, Ltd. The Paramount name was just a clever ruse to throw would be copiers off the scent. And, by the way, they were by no means cheap instruments. On the contrary, the designers, Hacker Blik and some still unknown French Engineers, were handsomly paid and sworn to everlasting secrecy. Even if you could locate one, a genuine Paramount, not a cheap copy, today it would easily display a six figure price tag. These were top notch professional quality instruments, made exclusively for a very select few. Totally unknown outside those elite circles, they were said to posess a kind of magical diamond-dust-kiln-fired quality that would thwart any and all competitors. One of the most closely guarded secrets of clarinetdom, it has been strongly recommended by Mr. Blik himself that this thread be closed immediately lest anyone should be injured, or worse, whilst in hot persuit of the elusive and much sought after, Genuine mind you, Paramount Sonatina....
- b nor -
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-23 12:01
Instrument names get sold, with or without their parent companies. Lately the no-name companies are getting cute about disguising the shoddiness of the merch (lost the tacky bright red pads and those useless, super-weak cases made of thin plastic lined with spray-on flocking), but I've never seen any wind instruments for sale at Costco except extra-cheapies I'd only give to a kid like Dudley Dursley. I wish they'd stock Yamahas or something playable that wouldn't discourage kids and their parents. Costco sells brand name electronic gear (along with the junk...) and once a year or so they even bring in Yamaha electronic keyboards--nowhere near the top of the Yamaha line (old models being phased out, usually), but they're decent quality for students.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-08-23 12:06
I in fact had the opportunity to place Mr. Marcellus' Paramount clarinet while at Northwestern, which he kept under lock and key in a large wall safe along with his prized collection of Buffet Crown mouthpieces. He went on for over an hour about what a compromise stepping down to his R13 was, but that he did what he could to have Bill Brannen customize it to emulate his irreplaceable Sonatina.
___
I'm going to take the other side of this argument. As a parent and a teacher I don't see a problem with cheap instruments sold out of WalMarts and Costco. A large percentage of kids don't stick it out past a year or two anyway, and the cost of a WalMart P.O.S. is far less than a 24 month rental agreement. So they are disposable. So what. Those that are serious enough to take it past the point where the quality really matters will graduate quickly to a more robust instrument that will carry then much further. The way the performing arts are eroding in the schools and in the community at large, if putting a sub-$200 clarinet in Costco gets more kids to try it, hooray.
I concur that the quality of these "instruments" is an impediment to real achievement, but quite frankly that shredded brown year-old reed tied to the chipped $2 mouthpiece with a ligature that is missing a screw and has been stepped on is a bigger problem.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-08-23 13:04
Would you buy a 5-gallon jar of mayonnaise from a music store?
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-23 13:11
"I'm going to take the other side of this argument. As a parent and a teacher I don't see a problem with cheap instruments sold out of WalMarts and Costco. A large percentage of kids don't stick it out past a year or two anyway, and the cost of a WalMart P.O.S. is far less than a 24 month rental agreement."
--------------------------------------------------
I can't disagree more. Getting a P.O.S. like that will guarantee that the student not only won't be able to play well, but will almost certainly guarantee's that the student will quit - because lack of success guarantees disinterest.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-23 13:22
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> "I'm going to take the other side of this argument. As a parent
> and a teacher I don't see a problem with cheap instruments sold
> out of WalMarts and Costco. A large percentage of kids don't
> stick it out past a year or two anyway, and the cost of a
> WalMart P.O.S. is far less than a 24 month rental agreement."
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I can't disagree more. Getting a P.O.S. like that will
> guarantee that the student not only won't be able to play well,
> but will almost certainly guarantee's that the student will
> quit - because lack of success guarantees disinterest.
Or if he/she can get a decent sound out of it, they have to work so hard at it that it's no fun at all.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-08-23 14:03
If the instrument is in good repair, I fail to see the problem. Now that in itself may be a challenge, but no more so than the "traditional" marques. Every school year I spend the first lesson with a new student with a screwdriver, an alcohol lamp and a notepad adjusting the horn so it will play, or at least making a list of things for a tech to adjust. This is the case with brand new name brand horns, the much-vaunted used horns they acquire off eBay, or the 25-year old clarinet resurrected from the basement to relive the glory days of yore. Yes yes yes, I've heard that techs won't touch these things. But, sooner or later they gotta eat like the rest of us, and business is business.
Guarantee is a strong word. Will a 17-year old learning to drive in a used Lada never be able to handle a BMW M5? If it runs most of the time, I think things will work out in the end.
And OBTW, let's consider where Conn-Selmer and others are starting to go to have their low-end instruments manufactured.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-08-23 14:14
msloss wrote:
...
> And OBTW, let's consider where Conn-Selmer and others are
> starting to go to have their low-end instruments manufactured.
The location of the factory is largely irrelevant to the quality of the product. The U.S. auto manufacturers were nearly put out of business by their own quality control issues 30 years ago. What matters is the specifications and quality control the company puts into the manufacturing. Many very good bicycles, including some in the Tour de France, are now manufactured in Taiwan and China, but they are under the watchful eye of the parent company, whether that company's home base is in the U.S., France, Italy, or Taiwan.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-08-23 16:32
You took my meaning quite backward archer1960. My point was exactly yours -- that these overseas manufacturers are private labeling for a lot of US and Euro companies in a wide range of industries. Lord knows a lot of our manufacturing sector jobs are migrating over there at an alarming rate because companies recognize they can get high quality product on the cheap there. I grant that some of these so-called CSOs are probably low-quality product, but we shouldn't write them off as a category with sweeping statements. Some are probably quite decent for their purpose and more than likely manufactured on the same lines (although to different industrial design presumably) that are turning out the low-end Yamaha, Selmer, and other product.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-23 16:54
A data point: About four years ago I purchased a brand-new soprano sax labelled "Kohlert" -- as I'm a long-time fan and player of the REAL Kohlert instruments (German/Czech/Bohemian) I was fully aware that this saxophone was an Asian-made copy of something, with the Kohlert name stamped on it (with or without permission or copyrights, I'll never know). I tried this horn on the condition that, if it didn't play well, I'd get a refund from the seller -- to this he agreed. Well, the soprano sax arrived and, after fixing some quality-control glitches (maybe two hours work, total) the horn plays great -- as well as any top-of-the-line Selmer or Yamaha I've tried. A few other sax players who tried it agreed. Although it's somewhat more cheaply made, it's a damned good blatant copy of the Selmer Super Action 80 at about 20% of the cost, and for the very light use it gets it should last me a lifetime. Since then I've discovered (on the SOTW bulletin board) that this instrument was probably made in VIETNAM. Who would have thought?
The point is, you can't summarily dismiss the Asian makers -- they are learning fast, working hard, and improving their manufacturing to the point where in some areas (and with more to come) they are giving the established European makers a real run for the money -- and there's no denying the cost savings either. Certainly they copy rather than innovate; and they may be breaking scores of trade laws and agreements --- I'm no lawyer so I can't comment on that. Nevertheless......make all the jokes you want about "CSOs" and Costco/Wal-Mart clarinets, but pay attention to what msloss is saying -- those things may indeed be suitable for beginners and are a very attractive proposition for the working parent whose child wants a clarinet and (if history is a guide) is more than 90% likely to quit playing after less than two years. And his other point is correct, the 'traditional' manufacturers more and more are outsourcing their lower- and mid-level instruments to Asian manufacturers.
Complain if you will, but the Asian Tiger is here to stay, in the musical instrument world just as they have infiltrated the electronics, textile/clothing, automotive, toy, and many other industries.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-08-23 17:37
Of course the Asian instruments can and will get better; it's a question of learning the correct quality control, and marketing, and so on.
And as much as I like small music stores, to be fair I'll point out that Costco, on their website, sells Antigua Clarinets, a definate step up from the First-Act ones they have sold in their stores. (Antigua is a Texas company that has produced instruments in Taiwan for some time, I believe.
Frankly, First Act seems to have a lot of initiative and pretty agressive marketing; I would bet that their quality goes up with time. Look at their website: http://www.firstact.com/.
WT
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-23 18:44
Wayne Thompson wrote:
instruments in Taiwan for some time, I believe.
> Frankly, First Act seems to have a lot of initiative and pretty
> agressive marketing; I would bet that their quality goes up
> with time. Look at their website: http://www.firstact.com/
On a very cursory look at their web site, two things stand out:
1. Their "performing artists" are all guitarists.
2. No one in their management team has any musical background.
...GBK
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-08-23 20:22
ron by wrote:
Actually, BFC, according to my people, professional undercover informants, Mr. Marcellus' Cleveland era clarinet was a so-called and little understood 'no-name' "Paramount" STENCIL instrument, produced under strict Top Secret conditions after hours by Sparrow Industries, Ltd. The Paramount name was just a clever ruse to throw would be copiers off the scent. And, by the way, they were by no means cheap instruments. On the contrary, the designers, Hacker Blik and some still unknown French Engineers, were handsomly paid and sworn to everlasting secrecy. Even if you could locate one, a genuine Paramount, not a cheap copy, today it would easily display a six figure price tag. These were top notch professional quality instruments, made exclusively for a very select few. Totally unknown outside those elite circles, they were said to posess a kind of magical diamond-dust-kiln-fired quality that would thwart any and all competitors. One of the most closely guarded secrets of clarinetdom, it has been strongly recommended by Mr. Blik himself that this thread be closed immediately lest anyone should be injured, or worse, whilst in hot persuit of the elusive and much sought after, Genuine mind you, Paramount Sonatina....
-------------------------
I'm confused...
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-08-23 21:06
bflatclarinetist wrote:
>
> -------------------------
>
> I'm confused...
Actually, it's even deeper than that. Did you ever see Acker Bilk and Robert Marcellus in the same room at the same time? Or for that matter, those two, GBK, Ron b, and me in the same room at the same time? What if we...
Steve Epstein
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-08-23 21:10
Hello,
I actually visited China about 2 years ago, performing at a music convention. While there, I tried every rubber clarinet at the convention (I was interested in rubber clarinets because rubber is what the mouthpiece is made of, so I was curious about the acoustical properties of a rubber clarinet). In every case, the sound was incredible. Equal to wood, in my opinion. The response was better than wood. I've never played Midsummer Night's Dream as fast. Intonation was a whole other story. None of the clarinets had what I would consider to be even reasonable tuning (and I must have tried at least 50 different brands of obvious copies of Buffet, Selmer and Leblanc). No matter how much I talked to the company owners, none of them sounded interested in trying to improve the intonation. Probably because their sales are good, so what is wrong with the clarinet? Everyone I talked to seemed very intelligent and very capable of doing whatever they set their minds to. I predict that one company will decide to put some money and time into improving intonation, then watch out everyone else. It will be interesting to see where the music industry heads in the near future. I think it might be very good for consumers, as the current monopoly companies will have to lower their prices to compete.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-23 21:13
In most ways (if not all) hard rubber is a BETTER material for clarinet bodies than is wood --- the use of wood is the result of MARKETING based on TRADITION and mis-PERCEPTION.
There, I think I've used enough capitalization for one day. Gotta run....
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-08-23 21:14
Regarding Costco and Wal-Mart P's. O. S., vs music stores' P's. O. S., I have seen some new student model clarinets in music stores like Sam Ash in the $225 range, along with used intermediate models in that range that they have refurbished, even if their repair work is a bit questionable. At least there are some people in those stores who actually play clarinet and know something about these instruments. What can you get from Costco or Wal-Mart? What are those two companies return policies like?
Steve Epstein
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2005-08-23 23:21
<<<It will be interesting to see where the music industry heads in the near future. I think it might be very good for consumers, as the current monopoly companies will have to lower their prices to compete.>>>
They'll compete by closing their current factories and firing their present employees earning decent wages/benefits, then moving their operations to third world companies where labor costs next to nothing. IMO, the music industry's race to the bottom is not all that interesting. It's sad.
Sure, prices will be very good for consumers, but there's a limit on how much you can buy when you're unemployed.
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-08-23 23:39
This has turned into more of a discussion than I was anticipating! I'm mainly concerned with the durability of these instruments. I've had the FirstAct/Borg instruments in my class for a few years now. Some should have been turned into lamps while others have lasted and survived ok. I don't see them disappearing based on the fact that purchasing one of these instruments costs less than renting one for a school year.
My biggest complaints have been on two things:
1. mouthpieces for the woodwinds / valves for the brass
2. durability - the material has always been soft/malleable and basically unrepairable
Does anyone know what these current instruments being sold at Costco are like? It says "power forged keys" and "monel valves" (for trumpets) on the website. Both of these are huge steps forward from what I'd seen on earlier forays into the market by low cost makers, if indeed they are true.
The biggest complaint and reason I've heard for shops refusing to fix them is that anytime heat was applied to keys for pads, the keys would fall apart.
Do you suppose that these instruments are repairable at current shops as opposed to having to send it back to the manufacturer for repair?
As for the mouthpieces, this is something that can be fixed for cheap by anyone. Just replace the dang thing. Most players already do this with the expensive horns. I actually came across a green clarinet today. The student couldn't make a sound on it. Reason - her mouthpiece was too closed and any pressure made the reed close completely on it. The clarinet played fine. It's very flimsy, but it'll work as long as she is very delicate with the clarinet. We tried a different mouthpiece...presto!...she could play just fine. The clarinet itself plays fine. Not the tightest fitting clarinet I've ever come across, but it works.
Well, not the most eloquent thing I've ever written...but...it'll do.
-pat
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 12:39
I agree that the Chinese clarinets have improved and are likely to improve more. That's already happened with Chinese student violins, which used to be literally unplayable and now range from unplayable to pretty good. For my money, the Chinese clarinets haven't improved enough yet to compete with the better brand names of student instruments.
There's one serious problem with the old rubber clarinets, and I'm curious whether it's been solved since the first generation went out of production in the 1950s. Those instruments warped like bananas when played outdoors in hot weather (and they still warp, when displayed outdoors by flea market vendors -- I see a few of these claribananas for sale every summer). Once a rubber clarinet warps, it'll never play in tune again. The better ones had a metal sleeve up the inside of the upper stack and sometimes the lower stack, but the sleeve caused some problems of its own. Some of the rubber was brittle, too, or turned brittle with age. These clarinets are as vulnerable as hard rubber mouthpieces, far more likely to break than a plastic clarinet if banged or dropped. Appearance was a problem, too, because the same things that turn a hard rubber mouthpiece green turn a rubber clarinet green.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-24 17:14
Lelia,
Your observations are pretty much right on the money --- I would submit that for outdoor playing, the solution is what was used back in the day of hard-rubber "indoor" clarinets --- that is, metal "outdoor" clarinets! Problem solved.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-08-24 20:38
I noted that First Act's website was pretty slick, if not well done. GBK, you pointed out that the performing artists were all guitarists and that their management didn't seem to have any musical background. Yes, I understand.
I mentioned them because they do seem like good businessmen, musical businessmen or not, and it seems that good businessmen would see this market we all think is there; the market for a consistent, reliable and repairable, low cost band instrument.
I just looked at the website again and I see that First Act has 'parts catalogs for technicians' and an easy to use 'Authorized Repair Service' finder. I see Anaheim Band Instruments and other good music stores on there. Hmmm... This partly answers one of Pat's questions about being repaired at normal shops. And the website offers "free repair parts for technicians".
By the way, someone asked about Costco's return policy. Costco has a reputation for a Wonderful return policy. Very liberal, very easy.
Wayne
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-08-24 23:17
There are a few stores that are certified to fix them. There are also a few stores that have 'refused' to become certified shops to fix them. The reason being the whole price-point issue on the repairs. If it costs a certain amount to fix it, don't, we'll send a new one out.
I did a search on who around town was certified, and in a 40 mile radius there were only 7 shops listed. This is cause for concern in my eyes. When a parent/musician is searching for a place to have their instrument fixed, it shouldn't be an adventure to find a shop to do it at. There are so many local and nationwide stores in the Phoenix area and to have your choice narrowed to 7 places is not a good sign. One of the stores who refused to become a certified shop has an outstanding deal that they'll credit anyone with a FirstAct/or similar instrument the cost of the instrument on rentals/rent-to-own if they trade it in.
Many of my parents I've spoken with never knew that in order to have anything fixed on a FirstAct instrument they would have to first call the company, get a work order number, and then find a certified shop to have the work done. Not easy.
With the Paramount instruments, are they able to fixed anywhere, or will owners have to go through a similar process trying to find a certified shop? Will the instruments stand up to daily wear and abuse from a beginner?
The whole point of this thread was to find out if anyone has had any experiences with the Paramount Sonatina line of instruments. We've already had-at the FirstAct line in different threads, as well as other low-end brands.
Sorry if this sounds cranky, but I'm really just trying to redirect the thread back to what the original question was about - Paramount Sonatina/Mt. Vernon (Costco) line, not FirstAct. There are already previous threads about this brand (and other similars).
-pat
(edited grammar on last sentence)
Post Edited (2005-08-24 23:18)
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Author: Joel K.
Date: 2005-08-25 00:53
Further to Diz's remark regarding the price of fine violins, I read in a book about the Boston Symphony (In Concert: Onstage and Offstage With the Boston Symphony Orchestra by Carl A. Vigeland) that Malcolm Lowe's (concertmaster) BOW cost $30,000.
Post Edited (2005-08-25 01:00)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-25 03:04
That would certainly make sense. I played with Lowe at the Scotia Festival - sure do hope his little son (he was about 4 at the time) never got hold of it 
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-25 03:05
There was a Cellist at the festival Gary Hoffman who had a Million Dollar Cello - you know the bow had to be big bucks too.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-08-26 22:10
Pat, et al.
Just to close the loop on a point or two. I see that the Paramount clarinets have replaced the Antigua clarinets they had a few months ago on the web. (I hadn't realized that when I responded before.) As I said, the Antigua were not bad. Antigua is seriously working this issue of reliable student instruments. Antigua told me that they sold one batch of instruments to Costco. So Costco sold them apparently, and now they have a batch of the Paramount, whoever they are. The Paramount specs are similar to the Antigua:
Bore: .577"
Undercut Tone Holes
17/6 Power Forged Keys
Nickel Silver Keywork
Adjustable Thumb rest
LaVoz Mouthpiece
Pro Case
It says something anyway, that the nickel silver keys are forged, and that there is a name brand mouthpiece.
My point has always been that, like it or not, the good business people will do at least a few things right. Costco will probably continue to be involved in musical instruments
WT
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-26 22:35
The fact that the keys are forged is no guarantee they'll be durable --- it depends on the alloy as well as the process used to shape the part. If the alloy is crummy, forgings made from it will be brittle, or soft.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-26 23:42
David Spiegelthal wrote,
>>The fact that the keys are forged is no guarantee they'll be durable --- it depends on the alloy as well as the process used to shape the part. If the alloy is crummy, forgings made from it will be brittle, or soft.
>>
What he said. In my stained glass business, I bought some "bargain" forged brass decorative hinges, cabinet handles and other hardware that turned out to be useless. I ended up selling a big box of the stuff at a yard sale for next to nothing and hoping that was a low enough "buyer beware" price that my victim, oops, I mean customer, wouldn't come back and heave the lot through my front window some dark and stormy night. Some of that brass was soft and some was brittle. I had quality control problems with cast metal (brass and steel) from China, as well--screws with heads that broke clean off, from the torque I could put on them with a hand-held screwdriver, among other things--and weak lead came, full of impurities, that wouldn't hold a temper. That was ten years ago. Things may have changed by now, because as others have said, the Chinese do seem to be making an effort to improve their reputation, but at the time, I learned the hard way to pay more for steel and lead from Canada and brass and copper from India.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-08-27 05:29
I'm "playing" an Antiqua Tenor Sax. I double the 4th tenor part as sort of an apprentice/back-up. (Hey, its good for my reading, phrasing, intonation, counting, ...)
Last week, the main 4th tenor showed up with an ugly, sandblast-finished Selmer Reference 54 Tenor fresh from WWBW. Amazing, my (rented) Antiqua is a clear copy --even to the shape of the spatulas, the register key, ...
Now, this Antiqua was supposed to be new. It probably wasn't, but it took three trips to the shop to make it playable down to C4 (written). In several months, I still haven't been able to make the low B, Bb play reliably.
The horn was absolutely unplayable by a beginner,although a seasoned sax player could, with effort, get buy with it. Not the right thing to do to a starter student.
Last week, I tried to play the Faure' Pavane (in 6-flats), and the clacking of the keys drowns out the notes: Tone, clacketty, Tone, clacketty, ...
It sounds like junk music being played as background for a black smithy or a power forging shop.
The street price of the Antiqua is about 20% of that of the new Selmer, but if I wanted my tenor to be wonderful, I'd blow the other $3600 for the quality of sax I had as a kid.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-08-27 07:09
Having bought a wooden, low B, open hole flute from Beijing, I'm impressed with the instrument. I overcut the mouth hole a tiny bit to improve the volume but it is a good instrument. The price was 1/10th to 1/20th of the price of a similar(but probably a little better) item from an established manufacturer. It does not have the power of a Brannen or Powell but is a bargain. The tuning is fine. It also came in a double French type case.
The oboes from the same manufacturer that I looked at an played were very well made. However, they used the wrong design if trying to sell to the western market. I can guess that they copied an automatic model from the Soviet Union when they should have copied a Loree from France. Again, maybe they are selling well in China.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-08-27 07:39
Wes,
I'm interested in this wooden flute!
I've seen the recent Chinese Yamaha copies and they blow well (stamped with various names, Selmer Prelude being one of them), and their copy of a Yamaha (which is a copy of a Hammig) piccolos are fantastic for the price, and some even have solid silver heads.
The Chinese oboes were Moennig copies (as were once their flutes, alto flutes and bassoons) from what I've experienced, but they did copy Selmer clarinets (ebonite Series 9ish things) and saxes (as well as Selmer Paris trumpets) - I saw a dire Mk.6 copy stamped Parrot (tenor), has to be said the owner swapped it for a lawnmower, and without doubt a lawnmower makes a far better sound. There's a Chinese oboe on the European market at present that's a Cabart copy, in ebonite (surprise, surprise) selling for around €900.00 - I've had a close look at one, but nver played it.
I remember when Yamaha first ventured into the oboe market - they copied a Vienna model! Now that's a niche market by any standard. Soon a Loree copy was made, and the current Yamaha pro oboe is an amalgamation of the major French makes.
The Jupiter entry level clarinets (and their bass clarinet) are made in China, but the quality control is more stringent, and the end product is of superior quality than wholly Chinese controlled companies.
Oh yeah, and I now know what you all mean by CSO - there I was wondering why such an institution (the REAL C.S.O.) would endorse these poxy things (those plastic CSOs) - I can't say what I call them on here, but I think you get the general idea!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-08-27 08:47)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-27 14:32
I finally decided to read this thread and found it very interesting. At one time Japanese "tin toys" were considered junk and the only thing imported in America from China was fireworks and tea. Some of us can recall the first imported Hondas which were considered jokes.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Keaton
Date: 2009-04-11 21:24
Hello,
I hope you are still out there. Your posting of August, 2005 is very interesting to me, and I'm hoping to get more information. You indicated that a genuine Paramount clarinet would be worth six figures. I have been unable to find any further information about a Paramount Clarinet. Perhaps because it was "produced under strict Top Secret conditions after hours" ... and the "Paramount name was just a clever ruse to throw would be copiers off the scent."
I would love to know how you can tell if an instrument is a "genuine" Paramount. I have a very old clarinet. It has a serial number and an engraved name "PARAMOUNT, ARTIST'S MODEL", but I can't find any other information on the piece. It appears to be silver (possibly coin or German silver).
I would like to show it to someone who is familiar with the information you shared on your posting. Can you help?
Thanks,
Sandy
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-04-11 22:04
Sandy,
I can't tell you about the 'Paramount' you have, but the Paramount Sonatina that was mentioned in the four-year-old post was a junk clarinet ...or C.S.O.; ie, Clarinet Shaped Object.
Some contributors to the board were having a little fun.
And while an early 18th century one-of-a-kind clarinet made in, say, Nuremberg, might be worth six figures, a cheap clarinet made in China --one of many made there and sold here with a fancy name-- is probably worthless.
As to the real identity of the clarinet you have, perhaps someone else can help. I'm not versed in the various marques of older clarinets.
Post Edited (2009-04-11 22:05)
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2009-04-14 21:41
Greetings All,
As stated earlier, Costco does have a very liberal return policy. If you don’t like the Paramount Clarinet for any reason…take it back. Even if you purchased it at Costco.com, you can take it back to any of their warehouses. They will probably refund the shipping charges as well. This policy is for everything they sell. If the quality of the clarinet is really questionable, write a letter to Mr. Sinegal.
Allan
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The Clarinet Pages
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