 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-11 05:27
I'm still just a young clarinetist myself, however there is a freshmen at my school who severely needs help. He just joined marching band this year, and I can't bear to listen to him play with such bad tone that affects his pitch so much. I don't know where to start with him, well I mean definitely the basics. He's only had a few lessons within the 3 years he's played the clarinet, and I don't know if he is willing to go back to a teacher again. So, I want to at least help him a little bit. I'm not such a great teacher, but I know that a lot of y'all are. The places he needs help on most are pitch (which could also have to do with how much his tone wavers), intonation, tone, and playing evenly.
I tried to explain to him how to tongue properly. The tip of the tongue at the tip of the reed, however the point isn't really getting across to him. I don't know how to explain most of these things very well. I mainly just know how to do them.
Please don't tell me I should be worrying about my own clarinet playing, because I do. I just wanted to help him a bit so that he could play this music better. Although, clarinets can't be heard much out on the field anyways, it would be good to get him out of old habits so that he will adapt to these new ones in the early stages of his clarinet playing.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-08-11 05:53
make sure he has a good reed, decent mouthpiece and his horn plays ok - you play his horn using your mouthpiece. make sure there aren't any major maintenance issues, big pad leaks , bent keys, or some such.
then get him some long tone exercises and have him play them into a tuning meter to work on the pitch and tone issues. email me offline i'll send you some exercises. as will many others on this board i'm sure.
if he doesn't own a metronome/tuner - strongly suggest it. can't learn to play in tune without a tuning meter.
gently grab the barrel while hes playing - wiggle it (gently) - does the mouthpice move, or is it set firmly in his mouth? are his top teeth on the mpc, or is it loose in his mouth? if you gently wiggle the barrel and the mpc pops out of his mouth, then hes holding it wrong - major embouchure issues to work on first.
is he taking the correct amount of mcp into his mouth? 1/2 of the pink of his lower lip showing? lower lip bulged out, eating almost all of the mpc (in too far), etc? chin flat or bunched up and touching the reed and/or ligature? e.g, observe his embouchure and posture while he plays. see if anything looks odd.
hand position - wrists, fingers in correct position - watch him play - is he holding the horn correctly? fingers too high, fingers looped underneath the horn, under trill keys, etc - look for the obvious stuff.
what make of mouthpiece does he have ? reed strength? does the reed strength make sense with whatever mouthpiece he has?
for that matter, is the reed fairly new - or old, torn up, mouldy, etc. and is it placed correctly on the mouthpiece? too high, too low, off center?
remove the reed - look inside the mouthpiece - is it clean, or is it a superfund site in there?
make sure his setup is ok, and that hes holding the horn and mpc correctly first. then get him to play in tune with a tuning meter - open G down to middle C. Once thats accomplished, you can start looking at tounging and all the other areas we need to be concerned with.
e.g., start with the basics. but first he has to buy into a teacher (you in this case) helping him... and he has to commit to daily practice. e.g., make sure hes receptive to being helped first.
hope that helped.
-paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-11 06:11
He had a terrible terrible leak in his clarinet. He is getting that one repaired. In the meantime, I am letting him borrow my clarinet, which is in fairly good shape. He should be able to handle his pitch well enough on mine anyways (or at least learn how to). I was also letting him borrow another mouthpiece of mine (which he does sound better on), but his embouchere is adapted to his old mouthpiece, and since it would only be a temporary mouthpiece switch, he doesn't want to try mine (Vandoren 5RV, and the clarinet is a Buffet B12... Size 3 reed). At first I noticed he was barely tightening his ligature, which was part of the problem. His reed was about to fall out it was so loose. We have long tone excercises that we can use already. Our band director gave them to us. I don't think his mouthpiece is far enough in his mouth, but when he takes in more he tends to take in too much. He is so adapted to his old embouchere it will be hard to teach him the right way. He doesn't keep his right hand down on the throat tones, and his fingers don't always fully cover the keys. He has the same problem I do of pressing down too hard on the keys, but it's a little worse. He doesn't have much knowledge of alternate fingerings, so that will be something to work on as well. He has a selmer mouthpiece, I don't know exactly what it is, I just know the brand. His old reed was kind of chipped, so I gave him a new reed which helped a little.
He's definitely can learn how to play the clarinet properly, he doesn't give me a hard time. It may take him a while. It is just hard for me to get the whole concept across to him. Plus, I don't have as much time to teach him as he needs. So, that's why I need to know how to teach what I'm teaching beforehand so that I can get the concept across quicker.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-08-11 06:38
wiggle the barrel - i bet the mpc pops out of his mouth
if so, fix that first
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-11 12:27
Tony G. used to wiggle the barrel also
But the results expected were the opposite. If it didn't move, you were biting. Joe Allard didn't want pressure on the wings either.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-08-11 14:02
If you do some searching you'll find Ken Shaw's post on how to tongue.
One of the things from that post that I'd recommend is that instead of "ta ta ta", think more along the lines of "la la la" with the tip of the tongue touching the reed at the "l". Also, make sure he has a constant airstream and isn't trying to coordinate the tongue and the air at the same time (that was MY problem for YEARS!)
Also, make sure he is using enough breath support while he plays.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-11 15:39
I've been trying to teach him the whole concept of blowing all the way through the horn. It's easier to get in the low notes, and is why I want him to keep his right hand down on the throat tones. His air stream, during the time I worked with him, was getting steadier. However, he didn't hold on to much of what I taught him, and he started playing the way he used to (no fast air). Everyone has been telling him to think along the lines of "ti ti ti"... But, I'll try the "la la la" method.
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Author: jangjiman
Date: 2005-08-11 22:02
I'm the clarinet section leader for our marching band and we have a few freshman like that. Most of them tend to give up easily so you have to be patient with them. Also play along with them. They tend to not like playing alone... I try my best and tell them that the most important thing is practice. They all have loose embouchures (not sure if it's spelled right) so I'm trying to get them to fix that.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-11 22:16
haha. But I'm not even the section leader. 2/3 of our section quit within the first week. The person/people who is/are section leader(s) don't really want to take the time out to help him much.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2005-08-11 22:29
High schoolers that seem to be at the point of no return can be so difficult to teach...
Find a description of blowing fast air that works for him. For some reason, my male students like the idea of thinking of their air like a racing car: steady pressure.
Find a description of embouchure that works for him. One I find consistently works with students is:
1. Say "ah"
2. Stretch the chin
3. Tuck 1/2 of the lower lip in
4. Corners towards sides of mouthpiece.
Breathing: the idea of a split second smile works well I find.
See the recent topic on tonguing for a (so far in my experience) fooproof method.
Meri
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-08-12 03:14
Mary,
I am having a difficult time figuring out why you need to help this student? You are not the section leader (actually, that person has no real respionsibility for musical instruction of other students, that's the director's job) or a paid staff member hired by the board of education. You are skating on very thin ice here.
Sorry, but I'm going to tell you that you need to spend the time practicing your own clarinet.
HRL
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-12 03:32
It is because he represents part of my section. As an upperclassmen I feel I shouldn't leave him out in the cold and not help him at all when I know I can very well do so. Plus, if it were not for an upperclassmen helping me my freshman year I probably wouldn't have progressed as well.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-08-12 04:14
Your motives are admirable, Mary...
Just keep on trying...Teaching can be so rewarding!
Katrina
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-08-12 14:54
Mary,
You said "I don't know how to explain most of these things very well. I mainly just know how to do them." I'm not sure I understand how you will be helping this younger clarinet player. And then you say "As an upperclassmen I feel I shouldn't leave him out in the cold and not help him at all when I know I can very well do so."
So, do you have any experience in teaching another? This is not an easy thing to do particularly when you "don't know how the explain most of these things...". You must have something more going for you than just admirable motives to be successful (experience, training, and education).
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-08-12 15:48
Mary said:
"...I don't know how to explain most of these things very well. I mainly just know how to do them..."
Certainly not the best qualifications for one who is considering instructing someone else.
We've all had teachers like that during our formative years.
In short - they were terrible role models ...GBK
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-12 15:51
I know I can teach him some things, but not all the things he needs to know.
I've taught piano lessons to my brother and niece... They weren't very interested though. They got as far as knowing what notes were on the keyboard and the names of the lines and spaces in the trebble cleff. Oh and that was within one hour.
Post Edited (2005-08-12 16:05)
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-08-12 18:20
This is a difficult subject.
OT One H, I agree with GBK and Hank Lehrer about the importance of qualified teachers, but OT Other H, I wonder if we are being a bit too stuck up about this.
I was the beneficiary of a qualified teacher, not a famous teacher, just an ordinary guy with a music degree who played a number of instruments, played classical, jazz (meaning the wedding/bar-mitvah/confirmation circuit), just didn't want to teach in a school district. And my band directors in elem, jr hs , and hs were all woodwind guys of the same ilk. Despite the fact that I was never a serious player player as a kid, didn't practice nearly enough (and still don't), and gave up the horn for 25 years, I think these qualified folks have made a world of difference in my playing today, because they imparted fundamental skills and somehow also imparted an attitude of how to approach playing in general. In the amateur folk music circles in which I play, I am labeled with the moniker of being "classically trained", as if I'd gone to a conservatory, and I'm envied for it. Those who have not had the benefits of classical training on their instruments struggle mightily, because they really don't know how to play their axes, even if they pick up tunes by ear quickly while I'm fumbling through the pages of the fake book, hoping I'll find the tune before it's over.
So I've supported GBK's and Hank's argument. However, I find my non-trained colleagues always sharing what they know with other players, e.g., fiddlers helping other fiddlers with bowing techniques, fingering, etc. And it helps. It's slow, inefficient, but it works. Because the problem is that if you go to a trained teacher, that teacher wants to take over your musical life, devalues what you are doing now, and you will only be able to do what you are doing now better after about five years of lessons in his program, if you are still interested. But you want to play what you are playing with the groups with which you are playing NOW. And so, my non-trained music mates get their classical training in fits and starts, having a teacher here, a teacher there, that they drop when the teaching becomes overbearing. Some even fill out the ranks of community orchestras with their squeaky fiddling in an attempt to improve their sight-reading.
What makes sense for a kid does not always make sense for an adult. However, we are talking about a kid here, not an adult. But GBK often points out in his posts that the accomplishments of high school players are often meaningless in the big picture of the real world of music. So if this kid is not getting lessons, and Mary is very, very careful in what she attempts to teach, it may do much more good than harm. One wonders though, why the band director doesn't appear to be helping.
Steve Epstein
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-12 18:41
The band director is not helping, because this is only marching band. He will probably suggest that this clarinetist get lessons once school starts. Plus, the band director doesn't know much about woodwinds and clarinets, he mainly knows about brass and what to tell them when they are doing something wrong.
I do see where ya'll are coming from though. Because when I first learned how to play I adapted to the wrong habits and had to come out of them (still do), that if I teach him the wrong habits it may very well do more harm than good. So, I do see what you are saying.
So, would I do more good by encouraging him to get lessons rather than actually trying to teach him? I suppose so.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-08-12 21:48
Mary,
Yes, suggest that he get some lessons.
Steve, you think "... that teacher wants to take over your musical life, devalues what you are doing now, and you will only be able to do what you are doing now better after about five years of lessons in his program, if you are still interested" is bad. Try going to a golf professional. I have had a few lessons and I know when to stop (I find out what I am doing wrong, go away, practice like mad, and my game improves). If one is willing to work on their own with a mid-course correction or two, a lot can be accomplished.
The first lesson I had from Fred Cohen many years ago was just a few measures of an etude (he was a student of Bonade) for an hour. I still do the stuff he showed me. He took over my clarinet life and changed it in just a few weeks of lessons.
Being well meaning is commendable but what this young man (and maybe Mary) needs are some lessons from the type guy Steve describes. "Just an ordinary guy with a music degree who played a number of instruments, played classical, jazz (meaning the wedding/bar-mitvah/confirmation circuit)..." That sounds like me and GBK although he is a much better clarinet player but I'll bet I can hold my own on sax:-).
HRL
Post Edited (2005-08-12 22:03)
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-08-18 06:03
Mary,
I think that yes, he should get lessons. But you're offering to help; of course that's a good thing. Help him out. Don't take yourself too seriously; it doesn't sound like you are. Make it clear to him that maybe he can get something from you or maybe he can't. That you are just getting some pleasure from trying to help. And be careful loaning equipment to him.
As far as I understand Hank Lehrer and GBK, I disagree. Hank Lehrer said, "You must have something more going for you than just admirable motives to be successful (experience, training, and education). "
That's true for a committed teacher, sure, but it sounds like what you are offering is just what any human being should offer if possible: a little help and moral support. Do it.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: claril
Date: 2005-08-19 01:32
Just into reply to a few posts earlier than the last one, where it's mentioned the younger student who is an advanced performer but not yet teacher..
They can play, and can explain idea's to a certain point, ie. can teach, but not yet as well as the more advanced teachers, you can not become a fantatsic teacher out of nowhere, you need to start somewhere, i.e with younger stduents and then over time you will improve as a teacher, and the more advanced you become at explaining ideas, the more advanced students you can take. It's true it's nicer to have ideal role models all the way through our learning, but let's be realistic..
Post Edited (2005-08-19 01:37)
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