 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-08-02 20:44
Duke Huan of Ch'i was reading a book at the upper end of the hall; the wheelwright was making a wheel at the lower end. Putting aside his mallet and chisel, he called to the Duke and asked him what book he was reading.
"One that records the words of the Sages," answered the Duke.
"Are those Sages alive?" asked the wheelwright.
"Oh no," said the Duke, "they are dead."
"In that case," said the wheelwright, "what you are reading can be nothing but the lees and scum of bygone men."
"How dare you, a wheelwright, find fault with the book I am reading? If you can explain your statement, I will let it pass. If not, you shall die."
"Speaking as a wheelwright," he replied, "I look at the matter in this way: when I am making a wheel, if my stroke is too slow, then it bites deep but is not steady; if my stroke is too fast, then it is steady, but it does not go deep. The right pace, neither slow nor fast, cannot get into the hand unless it comes from the heart. It is a thing that cannot be put into words or rules; there is an art in it that I cannot explain to my son. That is why it is impossible for me to let him take over my work, and here I am at the age of seventy still making wheels.
"In my opinion it must have been the same with the men of old. All that was worth handing on, died with them; the rest, they put in their books. That is why I said that what you were reading was the lees and scum of bygone men."
Chuang Tzu
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-02 20:57
By Chuang Tzu's own argument, this is scarcely worth reading.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-08-02 21:09
>>"In my opinion it must have been the same with the men of old. All that was worth handing on, died with them; the rest, they put in their books."
Heavy stuff. I guess it may be true. All that stuff I read about science, DNA, antibiotics, blood types, ethics etc. Plato, Aristotle, Lister, Pasteur, Fleming, Crick & Watson. All worthless!
Back to the leeches for me! :-)
Steve
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-02 22:02
As B Nat says, very profound, BUT are we not in the position of reading and UNDERSTANDING, and from there, improving-extending what they felt-knew, but did not or could not record for posterity?? I greatly enjoy reading Rendall, Brymer, Stubbins, Baines et al, and try to look beyond what they say to "ferret-out" their wisdoms and their directions for further research. To me, its a feature of the "inventive process", view the past and improve upon it !! Just PM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-08-02 22:45
Well, Chuang Tzu was transmitting the view of a wheelwright, 'speaking as a wheelwright'.
Some of you seem to have missed that bit.
Tony
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-08-02 23:21
And some of us did but don't see much direct relevance to the clarinet. As they used to say in the 60s, wax it and put it on the air with the rest of the static.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-03 00:52
Gawd ... if it were me that posted this I'd have been flamed for being non-clarinet specific ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-08-03 01:08
The Tao of Pooh was more worthwhile reading.....and Watership Down wasn't as boring.
Poor Tony: there must be a person inside him screaming to get out
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2005-08-03 01:16
But just remember:
In days of old, when men WERE bold,
And women were not particular,
Some leaned them up against the wall,
and played them perpendicular.
{Speaking of contra-alto's of course}
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-08-03 04:23
"""In my opinion it must have been the same with the men of old. All that was worth handing on, died with them; the rest, they put in their books.''
And what is your opinion Tony, as a clarinet player?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-08-03 11:41
John Kelly - Australia wrote:
>> And what is your opinion Tony, as a clarinet player?>>
I suppose, as a clarinet player, I see what the wheelwright was getting at. (Though we're not told, I like to think that Duke Huan did too, and moreover that he thereafter read his books with a slightly different slant.)
I appreciate that not all clarinet players here are clarinet players in the same sense as the wheelwright was a wheelwright -- namely, that he had to produce wheels that worked in the real world (went round smoothly, didn't fall off and so on).
I'd say it can be instructive for those people whose primary expertise is in another area -- and I find it instructive myself in disciplines in which I am not expert -- to see how what the wheelwright says applies in their own area of expertise; to realise how far the technical knowledge that is transmissible by books and explanation falls short of what is required for them to do what they do; and then to take books about how to play the clarinet with an appropriate pinch of salt.
Somebody wrote me privately: why do you bother to write things yourself, if you think it's useless?
Well, I didn't say it was useless, and nor did the wheelwright.
He first asked, were the Sages the Duke was reading still alive? Because if they were alive, it would be possible to work with them -- as indeed musicians and other craftsmen learn by studying with and sometimes working alongside practised exponents of their art. Sage or not, I spend a fair proportion of my time working with students in this way.
It is precisely because people like Russianoff were by all accounts inspired teachers that we should be wary of overestimating the value of their books. What the wheelwright is saying is relevant to clarinet playing -- even if it is also relevant to much else -- because it functions to throw into relief that the best of what those teachers had to offer lived in the world of practical, not technical knowledge.
Some of you could learn some manners, as well as -- probably -- many other things.
Tony
Post Edited (2005-08-03 11:43)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-03 11:54
The wheelwright said "All that was worth handing on, died with them."
If "All" means "All", it seems to me that the wheelwright thought that the books contained nothing worth handing on. I think that is tantamount to saying that books are useless.
....
But there is another angle to this, which I think might be useful to explore. Perhaps the wheelwright, while an excellent craftsman, was a poor teacher. I am sure that not every excellent clarinet player is an excellent teacher. I wonder whether there are excellent teachers of the clarinet - teachers at a high level, I mean, not teachers of beginners - who are mediocre players?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-03 11:59
I like Seinfeld's quip...."After you read a book why do you need to save it?"
But even more, I like the Library Detective guy. I'm wondering, though, were there ever any "Wheelwrongs"?
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-03 12:44
One thing that Gigliotti would say why he never wrote a book about Clarinet playing is that his views changed over time and to write a book would lock in what his thoughts were at that point of time.
He didn't like that.
Fortunately Carmine Campione wrote his book which basically outlines and details what Gigliotti taught. It is basically "the Philadelphia School" of Clarinet playing.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 00:24
There are some similiarities between a wheelwright and a musician in that both professions require a combination of technical proficiency and art. The dividing line between technique and artistry isn't always absolutely clear. Extremely refined technique is part of the definition of artistry; yet some artists (Bob Dylan) make art out of deliberate un-refinement.
The wheelwright's wheel might not fit the axle for which it was purchased; or the wheel might fall apart because the wheelwright wrought it of inferior material; or-- well, a number of mechanical things can go wrong with a wheel. It's possible to state, objectively, what those things are; and for most students, the ways to avoid those types of mistakes can be taught best with a combination of a text and personal instruction from someone who can *show* what's right and what's wrong, instead of just telling in a book. Similarly, the clarinetist might play out of tune, or not know the scales, or not know how to read music: things that can be taught, and better in person, by a teacher, than only through a book that can't give feedback.
But then there's the art: Is the wheelwright's wheel a thing of beauty? Does the musician make music or only make notes? Those things can't come from a book, and to some extent, they can't come from the wheelwright or the musician, either, because they depend not only on what's produced but on who's judging. It's not enough for a book and a teacher to teach the wheelwright or the musician. Somebody has to teach the audience some standards, too. Somebody who's never seen, let alone used, a wheel before doesn't know if *this* wheel is any good or not. Somebody who doesn't know a clarinet from a rutabaga won't be the best judge of a concerto, either.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 00:43
Sure, but wouldn't we be missing some historical information if teachers didn't write about their art? I am thinking of people like Quantz whose books are valued resources of period playing.
johng
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-08-04 01:05
I've always liked to think that some historical books on period playing were written by quacks who just happened to know the right publisher and print on more durable paper. It doesn't seem all that improbable that at least one current "authoritative historical reference" was either dismissed as crap at the time or so obscure that nobody paid notice, but somehow existed and made its way into modern historians' hands.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-04 02:15
What was the quality of this wheelwright's work? If he was a terrible wheelwright wouldn't it be pretty easy to pass this on? If he realized that passing this skill on to his son or daughter would be a gradual process perhaps he could have done it. It is so obvious....As Carmine Caruso said in his book.....yes his book.... when you start out you will sound like you are starting out! The progress will be gradual....you can't correct problems immediately.....If he told you what to do...it wouldn't help because the process requires the body to go through some changes. All books are not created equal. There is also a skill to communicating. Some Wheelwrights could verbalize better than others. Some gave up like the one in this story. How did he learn the skill? My guess is his father didn't write a book about making wheels. How fast or slow? I'm sure the scientists could come up with some ways to measure the optimum speed for the wheelwright. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-08-04 03:03
I'm confident that I've found printed information on clarinet playing (Langenus, Mazzeo, ...) that made me a better player. Not everything worthwhile went in the box with those fellows.
Its also hard to read the masters' books. I recall seeing in Elvstroms's book on sailing the caption: "I don't think that this skipper should be holding back on the face of this wave." Phewwww, right over my head. Then, years and years later, the Master elaborated just a pinch on what he said so rightly, so concisely in that caption; and I made a quantum leap in my sailing speed!
No one ever told me about "thrown notes" except Langenus. In my reincarnation as a community orchestra player, I find that no one knows about thrown notes, certainly none have ever read Langenus.
And, memory is imperfect --as is cognition. Thus, I find it necessary to keep all my books.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-04 03:11
addendum...... when he mentioned the word heart.....we get into the realm of Art. Separating the art and craft of wheelwrighting or clarinet playing is a problem. If the wheelwright feels it is impossible to quantify exactly what he does that shouldn't pose a problem. If he was the only wheelwright in the world he might be lead to think there is only one method to do what he does. There were many wheelwrights all with their own way of doing things. It isn't necessary to quantify exactly what we do in order to give other people insight into how to learn a skill. When I read in Russianof's (spelling?) book that I might rotate a barrel or bell and find a sweet spot I didn't need to know exactly how much his barrel was rotated. I don't suppose anyone has learned all they needed to know about clarinet playing from one book.but that doesn't suggest the book is useless. ...........Teachers don't turn out clones even if they try. Wheelwrights should write more books. ........I can see it now....Wheelwrighting for Dummies. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-08-04 03:52
BobD, I think, jested:
'were there ever any "Wheelwrongs"?'
Interestingly, the word "wright" means to "make" - a "Wheelwright" being someone who makes wheels, a craftsman. So was a "Playwright" in early times considered a craftsman, rather than the more modern sense of an artist.
Before the "modern" romantic notion of musician, playwright as "artist" there was the original concept of these activities as craft - making something tangible and useful for the community. Even the activity of composing has more to do with arranging things - perhaps setting existing musical formulas to paper, much as a chef would compose a salad (salad compose).
A Teacher of a craft, then, would be more of a "wright" than a "writer." Convey his craft, what he does or makes, as opposed to writing a book, which would not be his craft or expertise. Otherwise, the "wheelwright" would be a "bookwright."
Right?
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-04 04:39
Blumberg said:
One thing that Gigliotti would say why he never wrote a book about Clarinet playing is that his views changed over time and to write a book would lock in what his thoughts were at that point of time.
That's an unfortunate attitude from a purely historical perspective. Thank GOD Quantz didn't think that way ... when he wrote his flute manifesto
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-08-04 07:05
''I'd say it can be instructive for those people whose primary expertise is in another area -- and I find it instructive myself in disciplines in which I am not expert''
Of course.......for instance, I have been trying to get some understanding of quantum physics at a layman's level, for years now, and whilst a good many of the contributors to the science are living, I don't have the opportunity to be instructed by them........I'm not in the strict sense a student nor am I resident in their various countries - Paul Davies being one exception. I could ask I suppose, but he may not have time to answer my phone call.
It would be wonderful to have some time to spend with Stephen Hawking as well - to be able to ask questions of these people who have contributed to the literature, to ask WHY..........so............. I just have to take their word for it really. Lelia Loban makes some pertinent points I think, too.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-04 07:41
Quantum Physics....science , Wheelwright..."..comes from the heart.".ie not the head.......Art
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-04 12:29
I wouldn't want to do without either books or instruction. The things I've learned from books about music are qualitatively different from the things I've learned from teachers, and I've needed them both.
A book by a famous pianist, who wrecked his right hand by over-practicing and spent years playing only the left-handed repertory, may have saved me a world of grief. I took seriously his warnings about carpal tunnel syndrome and how to avoid that and other overuse injuries by rotating practice tasks frequently, instead of practicing one hand-straining phrase over and over and over without a break. A book can discuss repertory that might not occur to a teacher to assign. I don't need to phone a teacher with a basic question if I've got books with scales, fingering charts and other information I can memorize by rote on my own. A book can explain the science of music, with charts, diagrams and statistics. The author's personal history can inspire me.
But the book can't tell me, "Try a little more diminuendo at the end of that phrase, with less rallentando." Only a teacher can tell me, "At the beginning of the rondo, you're rushing. " The book can't interact. It can't *compare* what I'm doing right now with what someone else has done or what someone else would like to hear instead of what I just did.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-04 12:29
Diz - yes, of course. And that's what re-editions are for too.
For the barrel/bell rotation as Russianoff suggests it is purely to find any sweet spot or at least to have the same dimensions every time as the barrel/bell of the clarinet is not completely concentric (minuta, but nevertheless).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-04 19:34
Upon further deflection.......The Wheelwright is saying that art is impossible to be taught. He couldn't pass it on to his son even by first hand demonstration. Not only does he discount the written word , he also discounts any teaching of an artform. I still believe he is essentially wrong. He is just a bad teacher.....or should I say a misguided teacher. In teaching you point the student in a direction....he will never do things exactly as the teacher would but that isn't what distinguishes good and bad teaching. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-08-04 21:02
Actually, the wheelwright is a craftsman, not an artist.
Same as any clarinetist. Despite what some might believe, playing the clarinet according to a composer's written direction involves very little art at all - it's all about playing the notes correctly with as beautiful a sound as possible to play what the composer intended and please an audience.
When the clarinet was invented, it's greatest practicioners were either court servants, or bureaucrats, or talented wandering minstrels.
Seems to me, that the instruction manuals of our craft can be quite useful for learning techniques.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-08-05 11:21
larryb wrote:
>>Despite what some might believe, playing the clarinet according to a composer's written direction involves very little art at all - it's all about
playing the notes correctly with as beautiful a sound as possible to play what the composer intended and please an audience.>>
Art is more prevalent than you make out. Playing the clarinet, as one example of its prevalence, is to show one possible aliveness of something that is seemingly dead -- being merely black marks on a piece of paper. To do that requires a special relationship with both your conscious and your unconscious mind that is hardly captured by what you coarsely write above.
That there is art in many other things, including making wheels, does not diminish what is required to play the clarinet well -- as the wide variation of ability between clarinettists shows.
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-05 15:01
The art and craft are interwoven. Functionality and beauty exist for making a wheel. The wheel could work beautifully and look beautiful. Craftsmen have come along way since the invention of the wheel. ................It's interesting that Larry downplays Art and then uses the term beautiful. Perhaps Art isn't just espressivo, gushy playing with lots of liberties taken. Playing something in a contrived unique fashion also doesn't make it Art or better Art. Unique isn't always good or appropriate. We have lots of it in the first place and the Art is knowing when and how much to use it. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-05 15:32
Arnoldstang wrote:
> The art and craft are interwoven. Functionality and beauty
> exist for making a wheel.
Indeed, function, design, aesthetics, and beauty can and do often coexist.
See "How to Wrap Five Eggs" and "How to Wrap Five More Eggs" (Hideyuki Oka) at your local library (if you're lucky).
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The Clarinet Pages
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