 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Abbie
Date: 2000-03-17 04:35
Kind of off the subject of music (but it's not really)...what is everyone's opinion of professors dating students? Or of professors making moves on students? Not just the general student body at a school, but students in the department. Everyone okay with it, against it, no comment? If it is off the subject, my apologies, but I WILL relate it to music in my life!
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-03-17 05:21
Late Joseph Campbell,a famous mythologist, was a professor of a Women's college(Sara Laurence maybe). He married with his student. FYI.
Surely,yours and mine are off the topic.
Please delete them Mark.
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Author: sylvan selig
Date: 2000-03-17 06:59
Just don't think along the lines of short term gratification. Its always just that. Always temper your judgement with regard to the long term and how it fits in with your overall goals. -ss-
Abbie wrote:
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Kind of off the subject of music (but it's not really)...what is everyone's opinion of professors dating students? Or of professors making moves on students? Not just the general student body at a school, but students in the department. Everyone okay with it, against it, no comment? If it is off the subject, my apologies, but I WILL relate it to music in my life!
Abbie wrote:
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Kind of off the subject of music (but it's not really)...what is everyone's opinion of professors dating students? Or of professors making moves on students? Not just the general student body at a school, but students in the department. Everyone okay with it, against it, no comment? If it is off the subject, my apologies, but I WILL relate it to music in my life!
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2000-03-17 15:05
I've always been very opposed to that sort of "personal" approach both in private or class lesson situations. Teachers have the "authority" advantage and, in my opinion, those teachers who abuse that advantage are totally wrong. In today's legal terms, it amounts to sexual harassment and should be treated as such.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-03-17 15:19
My former mother-in-law had a class from my former father- in-law, I think this is how they met...but I don't really know. She did not major in his field and they are very moral people. He's a retired biochemist, who actually did invent a treatment that saved lives. She's was a social psychologist. I don't know anything else, except that they celebrated their 50th anniversary a few years ago and they have wonderful grandchildren.
The problem for you is that you are in the same field and that gives your date, the prof, too much power over you. He may not be a noble person like my (ex)father-in-law is. The reason there are now so many rules against this is that there are so many problems arising from it. Good luck.
Ginny
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-03-17 16:08
One of my college friends started dating her English professor while she was taking his undergraduate class. She fell in love with him and moved in with him before the class ended. The two of them were well aware that this relationship could cause serious trouble: accusations that she was sleeping with him to get a grade; accusations that he coerced her by holding her grade over her head -- it was potentially a major mess, with academic integrity questions all over the place. A school policy stated explicitly that such relationships should not happen. I was selfishly glad I wasn't taking that class, because I didn't want to be sitting in the middle if this soap opera exploded into a scandal!
A mututal friend who did take the class kept asking me, "Is there something going on between those two?" What should I have done, lied about it? Told the truth and betrayed my friend who had sworn me to secrecy? Instead, I just said I'd never met the professor (which was true) and that I didn't want to butt into people's personal lives by asking questions. (I didn't *have* to ask questions because my friend was all too eager to tell me everything I didn't want to know...!) It was all quite awkward.
The one thing that probably saved the situation: This young woman, a brilliant student, probably couldn't have pulled less than an A in that class even if she'd snoozed through it, which she didn't. I think she worked extra-hard because she was so worried about appearances. I think fellow students who figured out what was going on probably decided that she was not getting any unfair advantage. She and the prof were lucky they didn't have any jealous troublemakers around them, though, or somebody could have made their lives hell with the greatest of ease. He could have been fired and she could have been suspended or expelled.
Eventually, they brought the relationship out in the open and got married, shortly before she graduated. The marriage was a very turbulent one and broke up within five years. I always wondered if they would have gotten off to a better start if they'd restrained themselves until *after* she finished with his class, instead of beginning with all this dishonesty around them. This situation wasn't fair to the other students and this couple knew it. They showed each other, right from the start, that they could feel free to disrespect social rules that were not trivial or stupid rules, but important ones that got established for good reasons. Eventually, that attitude that rules applied to other people but not to them broke them up: They ignored their marriage promises, too, and both had affairs.
People can't help how we feel, but we can control what we do. I think student-teacher relationships (I'm assuming between consenting adults -- for an adult to have a relationship with a minor is outrageous, not to mention criminal) are one of those areas where people need to use self-control, and wait until the professional relationship is finished before beginning a personal relationship. My 2 cents.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-03-17 16:11
Ginny wrote:
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The problem for you is that you are in the same field and that gives your date, the prof, too much power over you. He may not be a noble person like my (ex)father-in-law is.
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Or vice versa - Abbie may be the prof, we don't know. It works both ways - not limited to either sex. Abbie may even be a "he".
In any case, it's a very difficult predicament. Most teachers I know would "recuse themselves" if possible. If not - then they'd wait until they weren't in a position of authority over the student before "going out". That's how my sister ended up marrying her 1st husband (they started dating after she had finished her course with him as prof, and he made sure that he had no influence over her academic progression).
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Author: connie
Date: 2000-03-17 22:36
beejay wrote:
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I'm sorry, but you Americans....!!!
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OK, beejay, do you want to finish that thought?
For my 2 cents, I agree with the sentiments above, as far as high school/college go...professors coming on to students put the students in a no-win situation--in trouble if you say "yes", and in trouble if you say "no". The prof should be exercising some mature self-control.
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Author: diane k.
Date: 2000-03-18 04:24
As a professor (albeit not in music), I can say that such relationships are generally considered by the profession to be inappropriate and have been the grounds for several faculty for losing their jobs (regardless of tenure) in the United States. I know of one situation in which the faculty member lost his job (although at last word the marriage was working); I know of several other instances where the professor, IMHO (and as an outsider), was abusing their power by pursuing the student. These last faculty never did lose their jobs (or come under threat of that) although I consider their behavior far more aggregious than the former individual.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2000-03-18 13:23
Connie asked me if I wanted to finish my thought, and OK, perhaps I see this through world-weary Parisien eyes and it looks to me as if outre-Atlantique, you seek to surround ordinary human relationships with too many rules. I would have thought that the reasons for dating someone, falling in love with someone or marrying someone are almost as diverse as the human race itself. I can imagine that people drawn to the same interest, such as a professor and his or her pupil, might be well find themselves attracted to one another for personal reasons -- and particularly so in the case of people who love the same music. It surely depends on the professor, and the student and the circumstances. Excepting relationships between adults and minors, an affair between professor and student would never raise an eyebrow here, much less be the cause of any soul-searching.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2000-03-18 15:38
It used to be this way, here in the US, during the '70's, when I was a college student. Then came feminism on the left and political conservatism on the right, like a double - barrelled shotgun:-).
In all seriousness, though, women, at least in the US, have been and continue to be assuming a more and more equal role to men in the society. While the professor could be female and the student male, it is usually the other way around. This puts women in an uncomfortable position vis a vis furthering their careers. How would you like it if furthering your career depended upon your sleeping with someone (you didn't like)?
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Author: connie
Date: 2000-03-18 20:15
beejay wrote:
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Excepting relationships between adults and minors, an affair between professor and student would never raise an eyebrow here, much less be the cause of any soul-searching.
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Vive les cultural differences!
(and please pardon what I've forgotten from my high school French class)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2000-03-18 21:33
Steve asks a question, and the answer is, no I wouldn't. But surely that is an extreme example, and extremes make for bad rules.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2000-03-18 21:44
In my non-musical life I analyze a database of liability claims. EVERY sexual harrasment claim I have ever seen has been of a woman against a man. I have done this work for 7 + years.
One county had a single supervisor increase their expected legal costs of liability claims by 10 MILLION DOLLARS. Even if the private lives of those involved is discounted, any professor (of either sex, but in my extensive experience this is one sided) puts the institution at risk for a lawsuit in the $100,000 range. So go get that professor to come on to you, you could make a mint.
Ginny
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Author: David Blumberg
Date: 2000-03-19 02:28
I think that it is entirely unprofessional - during, or after - And I have less respect for anyone who has done that.
But it happens all too often.
Sometimes breaking up marriages.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2000-03-19 20:09
I agree with David Blumberg, but doesn't this happen in every walk of life? Predatory sexual behavior is wrong no matter in which context and who does it. But my point is that by no means all interactions between the sexes are predatory, and we should not be too quick to judge others. I do think this is a slightly off-clarinet issue.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2000-03-19 20:11
I agree with David Blumberg, but doesn't this happen in every walk of life? Predatory sexual behavior is wrong no matter in which context and who does it. But my point is that by no means all interactions between the sexes are predatory, and we should not be too quick to judge others. I do think this is a slightly off-clarinet issue.
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Author: Jessica
Date: 2000-03-19 22:09
My teacher had an affair with one of his students, divorced his wife, then married the student. I know plenty of teachers who have gotten involved with students. It's pretty common. I even dated my old teacher for a while, but we kept it under wraps while I was his student. My best friend is having a secret affair with her band director. I even know someone who dated her teacher in high school then married him when she graduated - he was 48! To each his own. As long as you have consenting adults, why does it matter. Of course, I don't approve of my teacher cheating on his wife. That was really bad.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-03-19 22:43
Jessica wrote:
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As long as you have consenting adults, why does it matter.
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If you got a C from the professor and the student the professor was dating got an A - wouldn't you be suspicious? Even if it was deserved, there's always the appearance of impropriety.
This is why in most companies spouses aren't allowed to work for the other spouse. It ends up being trouble for all - either people think someone is being promoted because of the connection, or sometimes the converse happens - a spouse that should be promoted isn't because of "the appearance of impropriety".
It's just much, much easier to wait until after the class ends to start dating.
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Author: Meredith H
Date: 2000-03-19 23:43
I once dated my boss and needless to say when I ended it it made work extremely uncomfortable. If this had happened while I was at Uni it would have put me in the power of another person where grading my papers was concerned. This could definitely have led to a conflict in interest if he was at all bitter over the break up. While I wouldn't discount ever dating this professor, afer all you don't want to miss out on anything life has to offer, I would wait until you have finished the course. All of my professors had zero appeal they all looked like they had been left in a closet for about 20 years.
If you are call this a professor 'problem' I think you already have some idea how you feel about the subject.
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Author: Abbie
Date: 2000-03-22 19:06
Sorry, I was out of town and didn't get a chance to check out the bulletin board for a weekend. To clear things up, I am a student who has had this situation occur. While it doesn't necessarily pertain to clarinets, it's a music professor. Not many people have realized that it's not like any other department where it would be easier to avoid him...the only way I was able to get away from it all was to drop band. My school does not have a fraternization rule with professors and students, and while I'm getting a lot of heat from my actions, I was just curious what the general thoughts were.
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