 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-07-30 03:03
I have a theory about section playing in bands and was wondering if anyone might be able to add their personal experience.....or completely disprove my theory. What I think is if a (probably imaginary) section could play completely together and completely in tune, the sound of the section would be louder to the listener than a section that does not play that way. It seems to me that being out of tune and not together somehow cancels out the possible loudness.
Therefore no one player really has to play very loud.
I play in a wind symphony where the clarinet players play quite well, but some believe that since it is a small section with two on a part, they are obligated to blow their heads off. My thought is that is self-defeating due to problems with tone quality and intonation.
Any thoughts? Johng
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-07-30 03:30
This theory, if I am not mistaken, is physically correct. When the frequencies (i.e. pitch) are lined up, the sound is amplified. The amplitude of the sound wave when one person plays a note is doubled when another person plays the exact same pitch at the same time. This makes a louder sound, even if the two people are individually playing relatively softly.
I have experienced this myself, so I would have to say that this theory is correct.
Can anyone back me up or are my high school physics WAY off?
-Tyler
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-07-30 03:40
Hi, Johng
In my twenty-years, plus a few tacits and re-starts, experience playing in many kinds of musical configurations, I couldn't agree with you more.
"Blowing their heads off" demonstrates to me a complete lack of thoughtful purpose and control.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-07-30 03:57
Tyler wrote:
> This theory, if I am not mistaken, is physically correct. When
> the frequencies (i.e. pitch) are lined up, the sound is
> amplified.
...
> Can anyone back me up or are my high school physics WAY off?
If the frequency is in phase, you'd be correct, but the chances are that the frequencies would not be in phase (they'd be just as likely to be 180 degrees out of phase, which theoretically would cancel out the amplitudes) but, as things go, it's a lot more complex than that simple explanation ...
Doubling the amplitude creates only a 3 db increase in overall loudness; that's not very much.
In any case, I think playing in tune sounds better and apparently louder. The Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra won't knock your socks off in absolute loudness, but they'll knock your socks off with their dynamic range (which makes them seem louder) & intonation as an ensemble.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-07-30 11:31
>>People don't know how to play soft. That's why they never sound loud.>>
Yes. It sounds as if this ensemble does need a better balance with more clarinets, but maybe it would help if the conductor told the brasses to stifle themselves once in a while. One of my fond memories of grade school band is the director yelling at our very talented, very loud first trombonist, whose last name was Blair, "Blair, don't blast!"
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-30 12:34
At the FAME Festival the conductor was "requesting" that the Principal Trombonist (Principal Houston Sym) "Play louder" in a passage.
His response, which at that point all ears were wide open as we knew that firewords were about to commence, was "could you ask the strings to play softer???"
You could see the condutor's face turn bright red in frustration - it was classic!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-30 13:44
I have no doubt that Mark's explanation is correct. I have experienced the seemingly increase in sound when my stand partner and I have our sxxx together. The instances are so rare as to be noticeable.
Bob Draznik
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-07-30 15:39
Lelia said: <Yes. It sounds as if this ensemble does need a better balance with more clarinets>
The ensemble I am speaking of is balanced to work as a small band, so 2 on a part for clarinets is just right. The thing is, some players, not just clarinets, think they have to play with more volume because the band is small.
johng
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Author: Burt
Date: 2005-07-30 16:54
As Mark said, if the phases of the output were all the same, 2 players would create double the amplitude, and would be 4 times (6dB) as loud as a single player. I can't imagine players staying in phase, even if the were able to get in phase in the first place. Being 2 cents off at A-440, the phase would drift from in phase to out of phase in a second. At higher frequencies, for a 2-cent error, the phase would drift out even faster.
But suppose it could be done. (I've done it with electronic oscillators, where the frequencies can be controlled to parts per million vs parts per thousand.) Where does the extra power (loudness) come from? It would mean that the impedance of the instrument would be halved. The player would feel the change. (He would be putting out twice the power as when he played alone.) Never having experienced this (another reason for saying it can't be done in the real world with clarinets?), I can only guess that it would feel like the sound is coming out almost effortlessly.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-07-30 17:19
Burt wrote:
> As Mark said, if the phases of the output were all the same, 2
> players would create double the amplitude, and would be 4 times
> (6dB) as loud as a single player.
Doubling is 3db (10 log p1/p2) in loudness I believe (the amplitudes are additive)
> I can't imagine players
> staying in phase, even if the were able to get in phase in the
> first place. Being 2 cents off at A-440, the phase would drift
> from in phase to out of phase in a second. At higher
> frequencies, for a 2-cent error, the phase would drift out even
> faster.
Phasing doesn't really have anything to do with tuning; it's where the wave starts relative to a single point in time. Being off in tuning starts a beat note along with a phase difference. Two steady state systems can be out of phase with perfect tuning (non-steady state systems are harder to work out, but those Bose sound-cancelling headphones do a damn good job in the upper ranges ...)
> But suppose it could be done. (I've done it with electronic
> oscillators, where the frequencies can be controlled to parts
> per million vs parts per thousand.) Where does the extra power
> (loudness) come from? It would mean that the impedance of the
> instrument would be halved.
No, the instruments are relatively steady state, independent (uncoupled) oscillators. The impedance would only change if the oscillators are coupled. What you're implying here is that the feel of the clarinet changes anytime you play it near anything producing a sound (including a wall with reflected waves out of phase). The effect, if any, for an uncoupled clarinet is most definately not noticeable
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-07-30 17:26
For me, playing in small ensembles where there is no real leader and everyone has an equal say is what taught to me to play with the right amount of volume and in tune. In a way, playing too loud and out of tune is due to a lack of musical "socialization". You are concerned about your part. Maybe the music is too difficult, too "challenging", so you lose musicality as you focus on playing the notes. Or maybe you really want to play loud, because you want everyone to hear how good you are; maybe you can move up a chair. You crave solos. When your section solos, you want to be the loudest one, as you know your tone (but alas, not your intonation) is better than everyone else's. In these kinds of groups, the players don't really know each other, don't regard each other as colleagues, and focus too much on external things, like the conductor, and expect him/her to make them musical, rather than listening for it and trying to achieve it themselves. When musicians realize that music is a coopoerative effort, they stop this nonsense, or rather, they work on learning how to stop it.
Steve Epstein
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-30 19:55
In my humble experience, some players just play loudly because they can. They play forte and fortissimo. As long as nobody tells them to stop, they'll continue, with any intonation they choose. At that point, it doesn't matter what the rest of the group is doing.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Burt
Date: 2005-07-31 00:02
Mark, I think that you and I are saying the same thing:
If two clarinets are not in tune, they can't stay in (or out of) phase.
If two clarinets are perfectly in tune, there's nothing to make them get into phase with each other. The coupling between them (the acoustics of the room) is extremely weak; that's why they don't get in phase.
If they are nearly in tune, the phase will vary with time, and the average power produced would be the sum of the powers of each one playing separately.
If something made them get in phase, the amplitudes would add, and the power produced would be 4 times the value of a single player playing alone. In that case, EACH player would be playing with twice the power that he would be producing if he played alone.
----------------------
All this has no bearing on whether players SHOULD play loud (NO) or out of tune (NO).
I haven't had the chance to try out the noise-cancelling headphones yet.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-07-31 00:26
Burt wrote:
> In that case, EACH player would be
> playing with twice the power that he would be producing if he
> played alone.
That's the one part I disagree with; the amplitudes are additive; each player would play with the same power as before, but the total amplitude produced is doubled. There's no "invisible energy" created (the individual amplitudes have to remain the same). You're assuming that the impedance of the wave producing system would be reduced and the amplitude of the individual productions systems increased, but it's not since there's no real coupling coupling and the wave producing system (mouthpiece/reed) is highly non-linear.
The theory doesn't even work out quite right in non-theoretical electronics. Nasty side-effects when overdriving the oscillators ...
Just add the two in-phase waveforms (assuming two players could even make the same waveforms ...).
I knew my education in electronics and acoustics would come in handy someday (now, if just the nuclear engineering part would come back into vogue ...)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2005-07-31 02:45
Mark,
This is how I see it.
If the two have randomly varying phase (slightly out of tune) or there are many players and their phases are random, the powers add (amplitudes add as the square root of the sum of the squares).
If the two have equal amplitude and they are coupled (they interact) and:
a) the phases are opposite, the power is zero. They take turns sucking up each other's power.
b) the phases are the same, the amplitudes add. The power (square of the amplitude) goes up by a factor of 4 (6dB). Each one produces half the power, so each one produces twice the power he would produce if playing alone. The only way this could happen is that the acoustic impedance is changed by having the other player play; if this happened, it would be a strange sensation.
If the two are not coupled (probably the best approximation for non-electronic instruments), the powers add, and two players produce 3dB more than one. So being in tune has no impact on how loud they sound.
(Being out of tune may sound louder because objectionable sounds always sound louder.)
Burt
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-07-31 02:50
Mark: What I think I am understanding from you is that there should be no noticeable "extra loudness" when two players are playing together perfectly? That is the acoustics part. Maybe what I am hearing is the delight and surprise of players actually playing together and in tune.
johng
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-07-31 02:55
Burt wrote:
> Mark,
>
> This is how I see it.
Exactly as I see it. The coupling is essentially nil, so 3 db would be the rise. Which also explains how one trumpet drowns out 8 clarinets ...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-07-31 02:57
johng wrote:
> Mark: What I think I am understanding from you is that there
> should be no noticeable "extra loudness" when two players are
> playing together perfectly? That is the acoustics part. Maybe
> what I am hearing is the delight and surprise of players
> actually playing together and in tune.
He he. Yup.
And the annoyance to the ears of out of tune players probably makes things sound 10 times as bad as 2 in-tune players ... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-07-31 04:43
Don't forget that the two clarinets are not co-located. That means that a listener separated from the two sound sources experiences a different delay time from the two sources.
That, in turn, means that the addition and cancellation of sound waves from the two clarinets depends upon the location of the listener relative to the two players --as well as the phasing and frequencies of the players.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-07-31 23:19
Sometimes bad balance results from some players jostling for dominance (an unconscious impulse to prove "I'm stronger because I can drown you out") while others aren't listening closely and don't even know or care that they're inaudible (and usually they're the ones playing off-pitch, too). One way to turn the competitive people in a more constructive direction while focussing the attention of the ones whose minds wander is to do a decrescendo long tone warm-up, where everybody plays the same note in octave unison. Everyone tries to sustain one breath as long as possible to keep that note smooth. Reduce the sound down to a whisper as close as possible to nothing, while still maintaining the pitch. Let the Terminators get fascinated with holding the pitch, maintaining the air stream and not deteriorating into gaspy noises. "I can breathe longer than you" is a less harmful power-play for the ensemble than "I can blast everybody into oblivion." My grade school band teacher used this exercise. It didn't cure the problem, but it helped.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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