 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: missclarinetist
Date: 2005-07-24 05:57
I'm still an undergrad music education student with many years of orchestra experience. Is that piece of paper (eg. degree you get) important in auditioning for a professional orchestra? Do I really need a degree or can I just quit school and start auditioning for orchestras around the world? Having been in the youth orchestras since fifteen (now 20) and with many years of 1st clarinet/2nd clarinet chair experience, is that sufficient to be in a pro orchestra without a degree? I can't say I'm exceptionally good but I'm willing to give audiitons a try and try to get a professional clarinet position in any major orchestra.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2005-07-24 08:24
While it is not a bad idea to take auditions, I would stay in school until you either finish or win an audition. While a degree isn't necessary in order to win a job, you can't be guaranteed that you'll immediately win a job if you drop out of school now. You do need to be exceptionally good to win a job, so continue to study until you believe that you fit that description.
Dream big!
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Markael
Date: 2005-07-24 10:57
The beauty of this bulletin board is that you can get opinions from many perspectives, from people of different ages and stages in life and different life circumstances. The one thing we have in common is interest in the clarinet.
I don’t have much knowledge about what it takes to win a professional audition, but I do have some life experience.
A degree would be a good arrow to have in your quiver even if you are good enough to pass the audition right now.
Perhaps you are one of those rare individuals who already knows what she wants to do for the rest of her life, and will never vary from it. In today's world people routinely change, not only jobs, but careers as well.
Sometimes people are forced to change because they can’t make a living. At other times they change because they are no longer fulfilled by what they are doing.
If you haven’t already seen the movie, “Mr. Holland’s Opus,” I recommend that you watch it before you drop out of school. My wife dragged me to see it when it came out, and it made a huge impression on me because some things were happening in my life that paralleled somewhat the journey of Mr. Holland.
A central theme of the movie is “Life is what happens when you have other plans.”
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-07-24 11:43
Haha can't wait for some of the pros to answer this one...
I say stay in school, get as much experience and practice under your belt, be better than everyone, and keep auditioning and learning and going out of your comfort zone. One day, one of those auditions will be the one you win.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2005-07-24 11:54
You'd be absolutely nuts to drop your degree...you never know who you'll bump in to at college for one thing.
If your exams, classes etc are assessed by orchestral players and similar, then every time you take an exam or play in a class, it's a free and often extended audition.
It does happen that students are phoned by fixers on the basis of their performance at college...at least it does in the UK.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-24 14:54
Some of "the pros" did answer. Chris Hill is an accomplished symphony clarinetist as well as mouthpiece craftsman and knows of what he speaks. Take his counsel. Missclarinetist, I gather from your email address that you are in Malaysia (?), but the rules of the road seem to apply globally. The education will be valuable to you no matter what happens. If you are so inclined, take as many auditions as you can while still in school. If you win a job, you can always finish school part time while you work. If you don't win, you still have an education that will carry you down many paths, or at least move you toward your ultimate goal of symphonic performance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-07-24 15:16
If you aren't "exceptionally good" on the clarinet, there's no way you're going to get a job in any major orchestra. Everyone who gets a job with an orchestra is exceptionally talented and if you go into an audition not meeting that requirement, then you're not ready to leave school. Hmmm....now that I think about it this post is pretty redundant.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-07-24 15:33
Let's ask a few questions:
The odds of winning an orchestral job? Not good
The security of an orchestral job? Not great.
The job market for clarinetists? Poor
The chances of making a living strictly playing the clarinet? Not going to happen.
The stability and liklihood of symphony orchestras financially surviving the next 25 years? Tenuous, at best.
Sure... follow your dreams, follow your heart, and all that rubbish...
But -
Each year (just in this country alone), conservatories and universities graduate hundreds of clarinetists whose playing ability borders on the unbelieveable.
The sad fact is that most will never earn a dime by strictly just playing the clarinet.
When you are young, the notion of being a "professional clarinetist" sounds noble and intriguing.
However, after a few years, when your friends have moved on and bought their own homes, have retirement plans in place, have disposable income, medical benefits, and treat themselves to the better things in life, the "professional clarinetist" monicker loses its luster very quickly.
A struggling musician is not a pretty sight...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-24 15:40
missclarinetist - at this point you are "not a beginner"
and that's about it.
Stay in School - GBK was dead on. Even better to get your Masters Degree. An Orchestra could give a crap less about basically either (undergrad is a complete yawn for an Orchestra, Masters is better, but still pretty much of a yawn), however that advanced degree could make your life much more of a success while you are searching for "that orchestra job".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-24 15:47
btw - Sarah, do the ICA Student Competition and see how you fare. That will give you more of a clue who's out there and who gets the gigs first.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-07-24 17:59
Also keep in mind that your fate in the musical world is largely determined by "who you know." What better place to get started on that than college?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hartt
Date: 2005-07-24 18:10
dreams are a necessary part of life.......as long as we don't try to live in them
now go practice
dennis
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-07-24 18:44
Kal Opperman has an appropriate saying.
"Dream and practice. But never dream more than you practice."
I'd also add that to have a successful career in music one does not have have to win a symphony job or even a college job. There are many avenues to pursue, it all depends on how motivated you are, how resourceful you are and how you use the information and contacts at your disposal. I've managed to do pretty well with a lot of solo playing (both concerti and recitals), chamber music, new music groups and private teaching coupled with administrative duties with an ensemble that I run.
My work is successful, varied and interesting for me. Sure, I don't have a paycheck that comes from one source (which only makes things more complicated at tax time and for other financial endeavors, btw) but add everything up and I have a pretty good life and a nice paycheck. I'm successful, doing what I want to do, playing what I want to play and meeting more and more interesting people along the way.
Orchestra jobs... well, if that's what you want, good luck! But don't measure your success by this standard alone. You're in for a world of depression if you do.
Cheers,
Michael
http://www.michaelnorsworthy.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Markael
Date: 2005-07-24 19:04
GBK—Could you be a bit more specific?
Seriously: A dose of reality is a good thing, and you have told it like it is.
But: I wouldn’t be so quick to call dreams and following one’s heart “rubbish.”
The world would be a sadder place if everyone made all life decisions based strictly on cold practicality.
Haven’t we all had dreams that didn’t work out the way we planned? And do we regret the decisions that led us down those paths? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes those decisions that were, in some respects, dead ends, have enriched our lives in unexpected ways.
Haven’t we all also heard stories of people who took the safe and expected road to success, marrying for money, or taking over the family business, etc., knowing in their hearts that they would be miserable?
All that having been said, I agree with the consensus: Missclarinetist would be foolish to quit school.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-07-24 19:13
Definitely stay in school. GET THAT DEGREE!! It will help to support you while you search and audition for that dream job. With the degree, you will be seen as a better candidate for employment (outside the music field) than someone with a smaller degree (if you are pursuing graduate studies) or no degree. Plus, if you get a teaching job, you may find you would rather be a band director than playing in a symphony that is on the road to bankruptcy. You be the judge, but think hard and make a well-thought-out decision. Good Luck, Hope this Helps!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2005-07-24 21:18
There's nothing wrong with pursuing your dream, but finishing your degree will give you a lot more training on a number of fronts. Remember that even with a Doctorate, you probably have a better chance at breaking into the movies as an actress than you do of landing a full-time orchestra seat.
Look at what actors and actresses do to survive while waiting for that big break. You may want better for yourself, and your degree might provide that key.
It's not that you're not good enough to play in a name orchestra--you may well be. It's just that the job market is flooded with high-quality candidates.
You also have a very narrow goal, which involves the highest demand on your skills and the most brutal competition. Perhaps you might widen your field in terms of the styles of music you can handle and the number of instruments that you play.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-07-25 06:15
Furthermore, you don't necissarily have to do music with a music degree. An uncle of mine graduated from Indiana with a degree in Bass Performance. He is now unemployed but was at one time a computer programer. One of my former clarinet teachers was a winner of the ICA competition _and his Dad was a well-known soloist and arranger of clarinet music) and he wasn't in a "major" orchestra. He plays with the Navy Band. Certainly, I hope this doesn't dash your dreams but realistically they're very slim to realize anyway.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bbboy
Date: 2005-07-25 10:05
Wow this is really scary to read all these replies. I'm 11 and have dreams also. My advice to you is someone has to get the position for the audition. Who says it can't be you. Have confidence and follow your heart not your dreams. Steven Trapani, Pennsylvania
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-25 12:48
clarinetist04 - my clarinet student (kid was 16 at the time - 1992) took 2nd prize that year in that ICA competition. He was probably the more talented player but still young and it was a very close decision between the two players. Your teacher was around 24 then (Jeff S.)
My student didn't go into music at all - he played in Harvard's Orchestra, studied with Tom Martin, and gigged some in Boston, but eventually in his mid 20's put it down. He now teaches at U.C. Berkley Philosophy.
Post Edited (2005-07-25 12:50)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: marzi
Date: 2005-07-25 18:46
On the other hand, GBK, you can work in a field for 20 yrs, and right when you are juggling retirement savings, collge savings, and still have a mortgage and kids to take care of and getting over the age of what most employers seem to look for, you can get laid off, there is not job security, retirement security or health benefits security, anything can happen anyway at anytime, look at the news and all the pensions and benefits disappearing . So I agree, get the degree , but I wouldn't give up ,
theres a lot of paths, and if you go strictly for the "security " at college age you may not have gotten anywhere at the end either.
And BTW, is it more women in orchestras( i am talking regional and part time ones perhaps) as so many can still depend on someone else to bring home the secure paycheck, as one of our neighbors plays part time in 2 professional venues, gets paid enough for the "gas money " as she puts it, as her husband is the bread winner.(who would love to change jobs himself, but its the security thing). It really does seem to be more women than men in the string sections at least,.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-07-25 19:53
There are far more back desk violin, viola (especially), 'cello and double bass positions than there are clarinets in a standard orchestra. That makes for better chances to become an orchestral "spear carrier" than ever will be offered to the best of clarinet players (who are, for all intents and purposes, soloists all).
A fact of life, but one to consider when looking into "doing" music for a career...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rockymountainbo
Date: 2005-07-25 20:09
The best thing I ever did for myself was get a college degree. It doesn't matter what you study, but that you do get that piece of paper. You don't know what's going to happen in your future and any education you get along the way is good for you and will help you build character.
I didn't want to go to college, although I had great grades and had gotten in everywhere I applied. I wanted to be in a professional rock band. I was in a band and we gigged around, got written about in the paper and we were only 17. We were good too. However, the band fell apart (due to girl/bass player issues) and I went to college. There, I met other musicians, played solo a bit and formed another band. We got looked at by Island Records, Sony Records and a few indie labels. Once again, the others didn't have the heart into it like I did and the band disbanded. I graduated, got my degree, moved across the country, formed another band (for fun this time) and realized I didn't want to be in a professional rock band anymore because the industry just plain ole stinks.
So, no, being in a rock band isn't the same as being in an orchestra, but the lesson is still the same. Always make sure you are one step above the next person who is applying for the job. You don't know how long it is going to take you to get the gig you want and until then, you still gotta eat, pay the bills and get by.
Man, I sound like my parents.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rockymountainbo
Date: 2005-07-25 20:30
missclarinetist,
After reading all of these, I am very interested in what you decision is. Remember, there are no right or wrong decisions...just decisions and it is yours.
I wanted to tell you a quick story about a friend of mine named, Jack. Jack was a member of For Squirrels...a band out of Fla. He played drums. They got signed by Sony Records and were driving back from performing at the CMJ Music Awards at CBGB's in NY when their van flipped over in Georgia. Three of my friends died. Jack survived with a broken neck. He recovered as did 1 of the other band members. They got a new bass player, the guitar player started singing, they were all over MTV, R.E.M befriended them, Pearl Jam donated instruments to raise money to help pay their doctor bills (insurance was to kick in the next week) and after one other album (under a different name, Subarosa), that was the end. Jack, though, had a bachelor's degree and a master's. He was married and they were expecting a child soon after the accident. They were on top of the world, but it changed.
Just think about that. That's a true story.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-25 20:35
---------------------
And BTW, is it more women in orchestras( i am talking regional and part time ones perhaps) as so many can still depend on someone else to bring home the secure paycheck, as one of our neighbors plays part time in 2 professional venues, gets paid enough for the "gas money " as she puts it, as her husband is the bread winner.(who would love to change jobs himself, but its the security thing). It really does seem to be more women than men in the string sections at least,.
-----------------------
I won't touch that one as it would become a flame fest, but yup - part time freelancers can't support families doing that stuff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-07-25 20:41
Will we ever hear from her again?!
David, that's interesting that you remember that competition well. It's funny to me that you were able to pull his name from the information I gave. I hope you weren't trying to prove a point by playing the ego game. I don't mean that to sound accusatory, as obviously your student was a very good player. Did he ever win the competition?
Anyway, you prove my point exactly.
So enough coaxing, what are you going to do?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-25 21:16
I remember all the competitions that my students do well in - but that was the only one where the winner had a dad who played and published.
and no, he just did it that one year
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-07-26 01:55
It's one thing to bitch and moan about there being no places in orchestras, but SOMEONE has to get those jobs.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-07-26 02:19
Morrigan wrote:
> It's one thing to bitch and moan about there being no places in
> orchestras, but SOMEONE has to get those jobs.
>
But, you have two factors at work here. One is the number of players competing for orchestral posts at any given time versus the number of slots. The other is the new qualified players showing up year after year, ever increasing, but who are still competing for the same limited number of slots.
Most people love doing something they enjoy for money. "Fun" stuff tends to attract more people than does stuff that is not fun. So, there's always going to be an adequate pool of folks to compete for those precious few full boat jobs that are out there.
One thing that gets far too little air time around here (the same as it does in most other musical fora) is that you don't have to work in music full time (or even part time) to have a great time doing it. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world pursue "viable" careers doing something else and still playing music. They don't have to try and compete in a tight field full of people who "know somebody" and thus have a leg up on those precious few jobs (and ones that don't pay all that well, when you consider all of it together). Instead, they live a comfortable life and spend as much (or as little) time pursuing music as they desire.
I'll have to see if I can dig up Stephen and Susan, an essay I wrote on this twenty years or so back. Full of unpleasant realities that really get some music types pissed off, but no less true for that. And, all of it partially based on basketball...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: missclarinetist
Date: 2005-07-26 04:29
Well, my plan is probably to finish up that degree and work as a music teacher/band teacher in a private k-12 school. I'll probably do graduate studies in music performance after that, and then I'll try my luck at the professional orchestras. I'm currently studying under Wayne Fritchie in Florida. I don't live in Malaysia and I'm currently on vacation in Malaysia. Do any of you guys know Wayne Fritchie? A guy that graduated from Julliard many years ago that now composes/arranges pieces for despub and teaches school in NorthWest Florida? He used to be a student of Antony Gigliotti. He's my current professor.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-26 13:42
David, that's amazing about your student being a Philosophy professor. How many philosophy majors are told that they'll be very well educated gas station attendants? (Not that there's anything wrong with that). Some irony here.
Sue Tansey
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2005-07-27 13:12
Maybe less irony than proof of hope. The level of concentration and singlemindedness that it takes to get ahead in music, translates well into the workplace. For those who will actually redirect all that energy, quite a few things are possible.
One successful local musician in my area went back to school and is not a sociology professor somewhere. One of my former students studied jazz performance, and decided to go for law school as graduation drew near.
Here in Richmond, I know several people with M.M.'s in clarinet who have had excellent careers in unrelated fields. One of our TV weathermen (also with an MM in clarinet) is actually on the sub list for the symphony orchestra here.
You may not need a degree to work in music, but it comes in mighty handy opening other doors when you decide you want some money.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-27 14:27
Further on this topic, I went straight through school to get my Master's in Music Education with a focus on Instrumental Jazz, thinking this would make me more "hireable'. Wrong - the year I got out of school, my state voted in a property tax law which caused massive layoffs in arts education in the public schools. No job for me - I had to be paid more, with a Master's, therefore I was undesirable.
I ended up getting a job as a secretary (back when there were such things) - and what a blessing it was! I was a young, single woman, working in a fun, young engineering company in a metropolitan area. I did that for seven or eight years, working my way up the ladder until I was offered a position in Washington, D.C. with a lot of responsibility, in charge of PC end user support. It was really a good place for a single, young person to be and I still was able to teach privately and play occasionally.
I received the original secretarial offer because, italics, I had a Master's degree. That's what they were looking for.
Subsequently, I married, had kids, and realized that the public schools were looking for music teachers. So I've come full circle, I do more playing now than I ever did except when I was a student, and I understand kids a lot better than when I was younger.
What's the point? You never know what twists and turns life will bring. If you really want to play the clarinet, stay where you are, but be prepared for other options that may unfold along the way. There's lots of other great stuff to do out there. Be open. Good luck!
Sue Tansey
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
