 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-07-22 03:54
in the mahler (4th symphony) there is a section where I am playing A clarinet (mmvt 3, 14 measures before measure 3) then there is only one measure in which to switch to Bb...hard enough without the bass in between my legs (...I am playing 3rd clarinet/bass clarinet part)...what is the proper thing to do in such a situation? People always say that transposing is bad (timbre), but seriously....the notes don't go too low for the Bb clarinet...otherwise, is there a way to make this switch in one measure? is it humanly possible??
-Lindsie
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-07-22 04:07
Transpose while playing the darker-timbred instrument (A), but visualize and audiate the projection of a brighter tone (Bb). Believe you're playing a Bb and it will at least start to sound like you really are using a different instrument. This is what would be going through my mind, but it might take practice to actually make it work. Did that make sense?
-Tyler
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-07-22 04:10
I have never actually transposed a Bb part while playing an A clarinet...do you just raise everything a half step?? I dont have the brain-power right now to figure that out...I know you lower everything by one half step when reading the A part, but playing a Bb..
Is that what you're SUPPOSED to do? because if transpositon is the answer, why couldn't I transpose the Bb-A section, which is easier (both note-wise and thinking-wise)?
-Lindsie
Post Edited (2005-07-22 04:12)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-07-22 07:16
I suppose you could uses a separate mouthpiece/reed on the A clarinet, ready set up. Then that sort of switch would be no different from what pit multi-instrumentalists do dozens of time per performance.
A lot easier than going from 5 minutes non-stop, pp, long-note clarinet playing, lipping pitch to adjust for a warped scale in a cold pit, to playing a piccolo solo 2 seconds later. Now there's a real challenge, but definitely possible.
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Author: Jen L.
Date: 2005-07-22 13:34
I did it by having the separate mouthpieces on each horn (which is what I prefer, anyway). Is this one of the switches where there's not even any time to put down the bass? If you have time to put down the bass, make sure you have a good gig stand to stick it in; if not, make sure your neckstrap latches on securely instead of just having an open hook.
For what it's worth, one of the reasons I chose the separate mouthpiece route was because of the other transpositions that you have to make in that part--what with transposing the bass in A part and the soprano in C, I didn't want to add anything else into the mix. (For me, once I start transposing, it's fine. It's stopping the transposing that's hard.)
Hope this helps,
Jen L.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-07-22 14:47
Transposing to make possible an "impossible" switch of clarinets is always acceptable. You just need to choose place where the transposition will most prudently avoid the resulting tambre change as discretly as possible.
As for the "bass between my legs" part--I recommend (and use) a K&M bass clarinet/bassoon stand.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-22 15:10
If you have a longer break somewhere near that measure you can transpose just a little until you have enough time to change. I don't know the piece so I don't know if you have that.
Also, imho transposing a part especially in the middle of the orchestra playing is fine. The chance of anyone noticing the different timbre is none existent imo.
By the way, how much time do you have to make the switch?
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-07-22 18:19
at rehearsal letter 2 it switches to A clarinet and you have 5 measures rest (oboe cues actually). then it switches back to Bb at the key change.
you simply ignore the switch to A, you only have 7 notes - transapose them to the Bb instrument. the whole tied to the dotted half low F becomes a F#, the F# a G, the G a G#, etc.
e.g, ignore the switch to A , keep playing the Bb horn.
you only have 3 measures to switch to bass clarinet - it thats too fast, play the prior measure on bass, up one octave. e.g, switch to bass clarinet 3 measures after the key change C. that gives you 5 measures rest to make the switch. remember the bass sounds one octave lower than the soprano.
this piece has lots of bass clarinet ** IN A ** - look at rehearsal number 7 in the 3rd movement - so you'll get lots of transposing practice.
practice some simple exercises - out of any book - transposing up and down 1/2 step to get the hang of it.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2005-07-22 18:21)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-07-23 23:34
Don't get hung up about the largely mythical timbre differences between A and Bb. Remember that Mahler wrote for an orchestra that used German system instruments anyway.
--
pewd - who as a private teacher really should know better - wrote "you simply ignore the switch to A, you only have 7 notes - transapose them to the Bb instrument. the whole tied to the dotted half low F becomes a F#, the F# a G, the G a G#, etc. "
No. Written F on the A becomes E on the Bb. Written E a couple of bars later becomes Eb. You can't use the Bb. That is why Mahler wrote for the A clarinet - nothing to do with timbre, it's purely a matter of pitch.
The correct solution is to change to the A, and stay on the A until it's comfortable to change back.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2005-07-23 23:35)
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-07-24 01:56
gordon and jen- I like that idea the most, and thought of doing that at the time, however at that particular rehersal I had forgotten my other mouthpieces (and consequently my bass reeds as well) :(~ so I had only on MP at the time.
william- as for the bass stand, I do not currently own a bass (though I am aspiring to), and therefore feel that, since my bass playing is rather limited, I should wait until I either a) play more bass or b) buy a bass of my own, as the bass stands seem rather expensive for my budget (that of a teenager going to college, paying car insurance, and having just bought an A clarinet)
clarnibass- one measure to switch from A to Bb (but it is a fast movement)
pewd- I have never minded transposition on Bb when reading A or C, but the thought of transposing from a bass clarinet seems a bit much. I am a bit out of practice on the bass, but that being said, I feel that the timbre of the bass would be too different and definetly noticible. I can tell the difference between a soprano clarinet and a bass in its higher register no matter how well it is played. Not so much with the A and the Bb, but I can definitly hear a difference between those two as well.
as for the bass clarinet in A, last rehersal I merely transposed because I did not feel like making the oboe player who has been lending me his bass get his A bass out of his car, but I do have access to an A. Though I feel rather proficient in the art of transposing, so that does not phase me. I just need to get to practicing the bass, which I have not touched for about a half a year.
david- I also noticed the transposition error, no worries, I am not worried about transposing if needed. I was just wondering if that was what i would need to do, and so decided to seek out everyone's opinions.
I could always make that Eb by shoving the clarinet strategically between my legs...or by stuffing some rolled up paper into my bell :-P
-Lindsie
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-24 05:40
Yes I read it is one measure in your first post. I meant what is the time signature and what is the BPM? One measure doesn't tell me how long you have to make the switch.
Thanks.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-07-24 10:54
Mahler doesn't give metronome indications. However the start of the movement is marked Ruhevoll (Poco adagio), then at rehearsal #2 Viel langsamer, then Zurueckhaltend just before the switch.
So it's a pretty slow 4/4 bar.
But that isn't the point. No-one is going to know whether you play the next few notes on the A or the Bb. They are ppp in unison with the 3rd flute, who is marked p. No-one on earth could distinguish an A clarinet from a Bb in that passage. Then several bars rest, then a slurred Bnat to throat A# (on the Bb clarinet). Still ppp, in unison with the fourth flute. Playing it on the Bb, you have to go across the break. Playing it on the A, it becomes C to Bnat just above the break. Do we assume Mahler deliberately wrote this for Bb clarinet in order to make it sound worse than it would on the A? Or is it more reasonable to assume that Mahler made a mistake?
But let's be purist. Let's assume Mahler knew what he was doing. Let's assume he really wanted a Bb clarinet, playing Bnat to throat A#. Now we must ask, did he want it played as a clarion Bnat? Or did he want the player to use the side key? Did he want A# played with the thumb or with the side key?
See how silly this is? Just play it on whichever instrument works better for you.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Jen L.
Date: 2005-07-24 11:45
You have access to a bass clarinet in A? I'm very impressed. I had thought there were only a handfull of those out there; is this through a school?
Jen L.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-07-24 15:41
pewd - who as a private teacher really should know better -
shouldn't post late at night should i? 
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-07-25 02:57
Jen- I am borrowing from an oboe player who seems to be in possesion of MANY...er... rare, valuable, "odd' instruments or what have you. The school lent me a Yamaha bass clarinet (in Bb) that is, to put it nicely, not all that great. Luckily this oboist had a nice Buffet R-13 Prestige Bb bass (and A bass) handy.
-Lindsie
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-25 04:55
If you play it at 60-70BPM or slower, and have seperate mouthpieces for the A and Bb, I'd say it's not a problem to make the switch.
With that said, Daivd is absoltely right. The different timbre is no reason not to transpose. I am guessing I couldn't tell the difference between an A and a Bb, and even if someone could, it doesn't make the music not as good.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-07-25 06:04
Could very well be that the beginning of the Bb part was at the top of a page when Mahler was writing it. At a glance, if you're not specifically looking for clarinet-switch timing, it looks fine. So many little things to check for, so little time... something's bound to slip through the cracks.
A lot of the "successful" and "cool" passages I've written were by accident. Just as many of the troublesome ones were as well.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DougR
Date: 2005-07-25 14:12
this may be a little heretical, but may I suggest you acquire your own 3rd/bc part from Kalmus?
I've done the 3rd part in the Mahler 4 a number of times, and I always use my own part, because it's marked up for transpositions and has little "heads-up" markings for tricky instrument changes. (Personally, I do the beginning of the 3rd movement on the A clar, right up until 6 before letter 3, when I switch to bass & do the bar before 3 an octave higher on bass, as suggested above.)
Of course, using your own marked-up part breeds dependency on said marked-up part...UNLESS you acquire your own part and avoid marking it up...just learn to do everything in your head. (advice I should definitely take MYSELF.)
If you're going to do much symphonic playing on bass, it's not a bad idea to start a little library of parts, esp. when transposing to A bass is necessary and you don't have the chops to do it at sight. the 3rd part of the Mahler 4 is all by itself a kind of master-class in tricky instrument changes and at-sight transposition dilemmas (if you choose to transp at sight, or are able to). Having a part handy to practice is one way to get ahead of things.
Good luck!
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-07-26 00:34
er...my version has the heads up for instrument changes (in german, but understandable nonetheless) and the only instrument change I have has thus far does not concern the bass in the slightest. I have ample time to switch on and off from bass, it is merely the measure that goes from A to Bb to A again, and the only transposition that is possible (due to the low E in the A part) is to transpose the Bb part on A, which i still am not sure about. Is it one half step up???
-Lindsie
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Author: DougR
Date: 2005-07-26 02:45
Lindsie-
yeah. If you're playing the Bb part on A, its UP a half step.
Like, if you wanted to play the beginning of the movement on A, the C# becomes a D natural, the following D natural becomes a D#, etc etc etc.
I love playing the Mahler 4, by the way. I love how you get to close the piece on bass--the last solo voice the audience hears is YOU! Can't beat that.
have fun with it!
doug R
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