 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-04 09:10
Hi
I have a trio with me on clarinet and bass clarinet, a flute and a doublebass. We recorded a few weeks ago and the CD just finished mastering. The flute player (who composed all the music and is in charge of the group basically) told me the clarinet sounds really good. I listened to the CD. The flute and doublebass sound pretty good, but I really don't like the sound of the clarinets, especially the Bb clarinet (the bass is reasonable).
Another person I play with a lot listened to the CD and said the sound is great except for the clarinet. He said he heard me a lot and it doesn't sound like me and maybe not even like a clarinet part of the time.
My conclusion is the microphones or microphones' placement wasn't good. The engineer used a Neumann condenser close to the keys, and another smaller looking condenser (have no idea what it was) below the bell. I'm guessing maybe the microphones were too close (especially the one near the keys).
Does anyone have any experience recording clarinets and have any conclusions about what works and what doesn't?
I had a better sound with just one condenser about a meter away when I just recorded a rehearsal of a different group (it was a different room too). The quality of the recording wasn't as good, but the sound of the clarinet was much better.
Thanks.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-07-04 16:10
While microphone type and number can be an issue, far more variable (in my experience, at least) are the distance issues (even a couple of inches makes a difference to a mike spotted in front of the instrument) and the resonance of the room.
While our clarinet players have been recorded with a number of different "setups", most of the variance that we have seen was due to minor distance changes from the upper mike (the lower was mounted to the bell). And, even with a perfect setup, we have found that the resonance of the room can negate it all. Our recording engineer guy spent the best part of an hour fiddling with the clarinet miking on an old Goodman "big band" classic one time, but we ultimately gave up and recorded that one on a subsequent session. Everything else, however (including the same guy on sax in the same location), sounded wonderful.
The biggest distraction for recording to me is having to watch the instrument/microphone distance. I've never worried too much about holding dead still with the "big horns", but when the red light is on you have to sit there like your body is pinned in a cast iron frame. When you're used to bopping to the beat in rock stuff, it's very distracting to have to worry about the slightest movement.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-04 20:59
On the keys is a terrible place to mic a clarinet. It creates three problems -- (1) mechanical noise; (2) uneven scale since the closest tone hole sounds the loudest; (3) undeveloped sound. The only time I ever mic that close is if the group is non-classical (e.g. klezmer, dixie, etc.) and you really want the clarinet to cut through the mix with a knife or will be shaping the sound with eq, reverb, and other efx. Otherwise, you have to back the mic off at least 2 - 3 feet (emphasis on at LEAST) so the sound consolidates and the real beauty comes out in a physical space. Mic can be pointed at the keys, but from a distance.
The important thing to understand is that clarinet is not a directional instrument. The sound radiates from the vibrating column of air, and has elements of the timbre that develop from the side of the instrument where all the auxiliary tone holes are. You have to be far enough away to hear all of that as a single instrument and not a collection of discrete (and unattractive) sounds. The best way to site a microphone is to listen to the player with your own two ears, not through a mic, and move around until you hear the sound you want. That becomes your starting point for the mic. You choose it, move it, aim it, etc. to account for the unique attributes of the mic and how it interacts with the room, but always understanding where the instrument you are recording sounds best.
Neither the first nor the last time somebody didn't record a clarinet right. Welcome to the club.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2005-07-04 23:50
There are almost infinite different ways of setting up a microphone system.
My possible suggestion is to use those mentioned mics plus 2 or 3 more various kinds at different distances. Experiment alot.
Record them on seperate channels and mix/fade and equalize them differently during playback/mastering. The more mics, the more dynamic the sound can be when mixed with others of varying equalized levels.
Also try a possibly piezo that records the instruments vibrations, and not just the air.
I know I never have recorded a clarinet but I know a bit about general recording.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-05 01:37
The problem with recording classical music with many mics on a single instrument, particularly at different distances, is an incoherent soundstage and phasing problems at different frequencies. Phasing is particularly ugly with clarinet because it is such a pure sound (sans vibrato). The expectation is a fairly clean and true representation of the acoustic environment, which can get completely destroyed unless you have a real artist in the control room.
The absolute best recommendation I can give before hiring an engineer is (1) ask for samples of work, particularly classical clarinet if he/she has it, and (2) get references from similar groups. Also, don't be afraid to go into the control room after a test take and listen to your playback. The first hour of one of my sessions is spent getting the artist happy with the sound I'm capturing. If you don't like it, speak up if you are writing the check.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-05 06:19
The music is not classical, it is kind of free/avantgard (spelling?) jazz.
I think the microphone was about 20cm from the clarinet in a small diagonal from me so it doesn't block the sheet music.
I just found another place I won't be recording in anymore, and another soundman I'll avoid.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-07-05 06:44
While the music itself isn't traditional "classical," I think it still falls into the realm of "classical" recording techniques. The instruments are classical, and you want the sound result to be what those classical instruments would sound like just playing non-traditional-classical notes.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-05 08:46
Yes you are right. I think record it like you would record a classical trio with these instruments would be much better.
We had headphones, and the bass was actually in a seperate room. The flute player insisted the recording will be like this....
At least now I know more about this and will insist next time 
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-07-05 19:22
There are also pickups that attach directly to the reed, made by Barcus-Berry. Maybe this is worth a try? They seem to pop up on ebay regularly.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-07 12:42
"The absolute best recommendation I can give before hiring an engineer is (1) ask for samples of work, particularly classical clarinet if he/she has it, and (2) get references from similar groups. Also, don't be afraid to go into the control room after a test take and listen to your playback. The first hour of one of my sessions is spent getting the artist happy with the sound I'm capturing. If you don't like it, speak up if you are writing the check."
I just came back to this thread to see if I missed anything, and I somehow missed this great advice, so thanks again msloss.
This was only the second time I recorded in a pro studio (and it is considered the best in the country...) and we had an engineer the flute player brought especially.
The first time I was ever recorded they tried using a single Shure SM57 microphone on the bass clarinet, ha! (after a few track they figured it out and added another one).
This time since they had 2 mics, including a pretty impressive Neumann (I didn't know anything about recoding at the time, eventhough it's only two months ago) so I thought "hey they must know what they are doing, finally 2 mics, and condensers even!". Since I wasn't paying for that (the flute player paid for everything) I decided to just do what they say....
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2005-07-07 16:12
I would definitely not use two mics in close proximity on a clarinet. One high quality condenser or ribbon microphone optimally placed (definitely not too close) should do it. You really don't want to specifically mic the bell, because sound emanates from the entire instrument. Ideally, more of the sound of the recording should come from a stereo pair capturing the entire ensemble, with the solo mics just filling things in a bit. Good room/hall acoustics is the key. I would definitely not recommend headphones.
It should be pretty clear early in the game if a given engineer knows how to record an acoustic ensemble. If the engineer is throwing way too much technology at the project from the get go (lots of closely placed mics, lots of EQ and other processing), get out of there fast.
Post Edited (2005-07-07 16:19)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-07 18:30
LeeB, I understand that now because of the great advice people give me, including yours
I had two problems at the time of the recording:
1. I didn't know any of that. I only knew (from past experience) that one and eveb two dynamic microphones don't work good, and don't capture all the notes even. As soon as I saw two condensers I assumed it is much better. I knew nothign about microphone placement, and assumed the engineer knew what he was doing.
2. I suspect the flute player (who also paid for it, so I couldn't argue really) and the engineer decided it will be done this way (headphones and seperate as possible) before we recorded. I remember the flute player telling me about how we have to do it with headphones and he thinks this is the best way.
Now I need to think of how to ask the flute player if they settled it before without making it sound like I'm unhappy with the results....
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-30 06:07
OK, bringing up this thread, I just want to tell about the recordings I had a few days ago. I recorded with a jazz group I play with and the guy who recorded did an excellent job with the clarinets. He is the soundman of the university I go to, so he gets to try a lot of things on a lot of instruments.
The group has eight players and the instruments are piano/trumpet, alto/tenor saxes, soprano/alto saxes, tuba/vocal, tenor sax, bass, drums, and I'm on clarinet/bass clarinert.
To record me he used two microphones from a comapny called Beyerdynamic, and I really liked their sound. One microphone was a small diagphrm condenser and located about two feet away, and a little above my head in hight. The second microphone was a large diaphrgm condenser and was a little over two feet away pointing towards the middle of the bass clarinet. I really liked the sound of the clarinets and of the entire ensemble too.
The soundman drove me home and explained a lot to me about recording instruments (he even amplified an entire orchestra for a live concert a few days ago).
Anyway, I learned a lot now, and I know much more about recording clarinets (and other instruments). Now I'll know when I should say thanks and when I should run away from the studio.
Thanks.
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