 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-03 20:49
I have an opportunity to pick up an R13 in great condition from 1960 (serial near 65000). Now, new E11s in Canada cost $1000CAD while this used R13 costs $1295CAD...plus 15% tax on both clarinets. What would I be better off purchasing....at this price range, money is not an issue. I just wanna make sure that 1960's R13 is still a decent instrument for that price.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LeeB
Date: 2005-07-03 23:57
Last year, I bought a 1967 R13 on eBay for $600. It required a complete rebuild/cleaning/buffing which cost $250. It turned out beautifully, exceeding my expectations, and it plays better that a 2003 R13 that I also own. (After seeing how well it turned out, I also invested in a nice, new case.) Don't know how much credence to put in it, but I've heard from various sources that the wood back then was better than what was available today. I guess you'd have to balance that against whether or not the horn was "blown-out." In the case of the 1967 R13 I bought, it was obvious that the instrument had been used intensively by someone through college, and then placed in the closet for decades where it rested until I bought it.
So, as the previous poster essentially suggested, it depends on the instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-04 00:12
If you have the additional money and the willingness to rehabilitate the old horn if it needs it, definitely go the used pro horn route. The E11s are wonderful student instruments and of course much easier to get than a used R13, but they just aren't the same. Craftsmanship aside, the wood of even the new R13s is a superior cut of the tree to what is used in the E11, and is in full evidence in the quality of tone.
Go play a couple E11s first, and then try this R13. You will know quickly whether it is a better horn. Do make sure if this is an internet transaction you have a return option if it doesn't live up to your expectations.
Happy hunting.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-04 00:41
Oh I work at Canada's largest music store chain...it's at my downtown store location
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-07-04 03:15
To be honest, I think I'd rather have a brand new e-11 than an old r13. Unless the r-13 is cleaned and everything then maybe, but then you might have to get the pads replaced, and some minor repairs.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-04 03:18
An E-11 will not compare to an R-13 in playing if the R-13 is in decent shape.
What to look for is the wear of the keys and the keywork.
Because that can get really expensive if either has a problem. The E-11 will probably be "prettier", however it probably won't play as well - no way, no how.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-07-04 04:09
All things considered, in almost every instance, the R13 is the better choice.
Intonation is the most important factor to consider. Only you can decide if it is acceptable.
BTW - Don't forget that the E-11 is tuned to A=442.
There are a number of players (including myself) and repair techs who think that the Buffets produced from 1965 to 1971 (approximate serial numbers 85,000 to 120,000) were the "Golden Age". My primary R-13 Bb is 96xxx and my R13 A is 86xxx, and they are by far the best Buffets I have ever played. Other colleagues I know think that there are many great R-13's up to 1981 (220,000) before the bore slightly changed to more resistance.
The R13 has had a number of changes since the mid 1950's. Some think those changes were for the better.
Others, like Hans Moennig, thought the improvements were a step backwards. Thus, he supposedly stopped selling R-13's after about #125,000 because of the changes that had been made to the keywork and springs, as well as the fact that he could no longer order clarinets with unplated keys, which he felt were not as slippery as nickel or silver, and were easier to file and bend.
Moennig also had concerns about the length of time the wood was being cured.
Many now say that we are in the new "Golden Era" of Buffet clarinets. I am not totally convinced. I think that great instruments are definitely out there, but it takes a little more searching and testing to find one. There have also been a number of quality control issues posted by the repair techs on this board and those concern me. I have helped students select new R-13's and it is often a frustrating task to find one that I would personally buy. Again, I may be jaded by the horns I already own.
In my mind the quality of the wood was definitely a consideration when I chose to stay with the older R-13's. Although certainly not a guarantee, a clarinet that has been crack free and stable for 30+ years has a high percentage chance of staying that way forever.
It is no secret that the length of time the wood is now aged is less than in previous generations. The jury is still out as to whether this has an effect on the sound and/or reliability of the instrument.
One important point to consider: In the 50's and 60's the R13 was the top of the line Buffet clarinet. Supposedly, only the best wood was used for these instruments. Wood which was flawed or less than perfect was relegated to the lesser models. Today, with a number of Buffet clarinets (Tosca, Prestige, etc...) at a higher price point than the standard R13, one has to wonder: If the highest quality grenadilla billets are used for these instruments, does the R13 now get the 2nd or 3rd (or 4th) best quality grenadilla? Buffet makes it no secret when they say that their "heartwood" now goes into their top brands. Where did it go before? My guess is it previously (and sporadically) went into the traditional R13.
What to do? If the clarinet sounds good, tunes well and is in top mechanical condition the decision should be easy, no matter what the year.
In the overall scheme of things, clarinets are still a relatively inexpensive long term purchase...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-04 04:17
Wow, Thanks for the answer GBK....just what I wanted to hear.... Just making sure the quality was around in 1960. I will have that baby transferred up to my location tomorrow and play her through...at the end of the day its $1200 with 30 day refund and I can always sell it back if I decide I don' t like it in the end run...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-04 05:15
Definitely try the R13, and then decide. I wonder how the R13s from the 60s compare with the newer R13s in their keywork. I have a 1992 R13 and I played a 1999 E11. The R13 has a much better tone, but even more important was the keywork felt much more comfortable, and the E11 felt pretty different.
Is the keywork on the R13s from the 60s the same as the R13s from the 90s?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-04 15:04
You can always buy a new E11.....but you probably won't always be able to buy a 1960s R13........
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ben Redwine
Date: 2005-07-04 16:44
Disclaimer: (I am a Selmer artist/clinician)
Hello all,
I played Buffet for a long time (my teacher in college had me switch from a Selmer). A kind of funny story is the reason that I went to the ICA convention (about 5 years ago?) and tried every instrument that was there and found the instrument that I currently play (Recital). My point is that you should try every brand there is before coming to a conclusion as to what instrument to purchase. In my opinion, the best moderately priced clarinet that I have played is the LeBlanc Rapsodie.
Once you have tried all the instruments that are available, if the Buffet is your choice, that's great. Then, play your top two or three choices for a close friend (preferably a professional clarinetist). It would be good to also record yourself on each instrument. It is often very difficult to truly determine how a clarinet sounds while you are playing it. What you can determine is how the instrument feels, which is important also.
Ben Armato told me that the most important thing to listen for when choosing a new clarinet is the e (bottom line of the treble staff). If this note is in tune or high, then other notes can be adjusted if needed. So, after finding instruments that have that note placed well, then I would assess feel, sound, and overall intonation to make the best choice possible.
I have played excellent instruments that are 100 years old, excellent new instruments, and excellent instruments in between. I do personally believe that every company in years past dried their wood better than they are doing today. I guess it is just not economically feasible for them to store wood for so long.
I think competition is essential for continued quality, so I am glad that there are several quality clarinet makers. I just hope that marketing does not limit the number of instruments that you try! Good luck.
Ben Redwine
RedwineJazz, LLC
410 798-8251
clarinet@redwinejazz.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-04 21:16
Just purchased it guys! Serial number 83666, made in 1965!!! It arrived..it's barely been touched. The wood and keys still look like new and the pads are new...the wood is in prestine condition. It has the moening barrel on it!!! I paid $1199+15% tax
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2005-07-04 21:32
But what does it sound like?!
Post Edited (2005-07-04 21:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2005-07-04 22:16
Speaking in generalities, I like the 1965 date better than the 1960 date. I think you're going to be happy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-05 01:18
Well how can I explain it....the E11 sounds dead compared to the R13....the tone jsut isn't the same...more presence in the R13
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-05 01:54
It's a completely different instrument and to me "barely a buffet".
But it's great for starting students or that next level before high school. Not for the serious high school player at all though.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: WorldIRC
Date: 2005-07-05 02:11
I thnk it would suffice for any high schooler....remember as well, in the States, there is much more demand for accurracy and perfection within just your average in high school. In high school in Canada, most schools are just average with their music programs and they all use plastic winds. The E11 is by no means, a bad instrument for a high schooler...it just doesn't allow the maximum potential for the few that may need more.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
