 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinet87
Date: 2005-06-30 19:22
Here's a topic that I'm pretty sure has never been discussed on the Bboard. I have developed the habit of holding the bell of the clarinet between my knees when I sit down. When I brace the bell of the clarinet between my knees I prevent myself from moving the clarinet and it also seems to make technical passages easier. I notice that whenever I play standng up my technnique is not as good. I was wondering if this is a bad habit? Does anyone else do this when they play sitting down?
Post Edited (2005-06-30 19:23)
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-30 19:48
No because I am little too tall, I can do it, but it prevents me sitting straight. The kids that play in the local community orchestra do brace theirs like that, but then, they also sword fight with their instruments, and blow crisps and chocolate bars down them too so I wouldn't want to copy anything they do!. I think that I sound better standing up, but I can't play for long before getting dizzy and having to sit down again. I keep practicing at it.
I think if your grip on the mouthpiece with your lips is suitably strong, and you are correctly balancing it with your thumb, and not hitting the keys hard with your fingers then there shouldn't really be a problem with technical passages, unless as a symptom of bad balance. But I could be wrong. I think some teachers do advocate bracing between the knees, especially for small players. [Thanks Stevensfo] If you don't normally have a problem holding the instrument, what is it you are doing in the technical passages that is different? Are you panicking and hitting the keys really hard (personal experience) or pressing too hard with your thumb and upsetting your balance or something?
Have you tried a neck sling thingy if you are having problems with holding it steady?
Post Edited (2005-06-30 21:04)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-30 20:00
Resting the clarinet ON the knee is fairly common for those that play double lip embouchure - especially when first building up endurance.
Resting the clarinet BETWEEN the knees is a different story - as it may have a tendency to restrict the sound and voicing of the clarinet, especially on the closed tube notes E/B, F/C, and F#/C# ...GBK
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2005-06-30 20:04
I'm an oboist and one of the clarinettists I play with does this. It always makes me wary of the tuning of his instrument when I play an A and he plays his B with the bell held between his legs.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-30 20:13
Brace the Clarinet on your right knee only (not the knee actually, but the side of the leg). Gigliotti who was the former Principal Clarinetist of the Philadelphia Orch. did that all the time.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-30 20:14
>>>I think some teachers do advocate bracing between the knees, especially for small payers.
I think that's terrible. Students who pay less have to stick their intrument between their knees?
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Steve
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-06-30 20:39
/"Five Easy Pieces" reference in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
"I want you to hold the clarinet between your knees."
/end reference
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-30 21:43
I actually have the same exact problem. My former teacher instructed me to hold the bell in between my knees to help keep it steady-I tend to move and kind of jut when I'm doing fast technical passages. It helps me a lot when I sit, but when I stand my technique just isn't that grand. I'd be interested in to what every one else has to say as well. Oh, the bell doesn't really muffle the sound (at least on me).
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Author: clarinet87
Date: 2005-06-30 21:56
I don't know what I'm doing wrong that causes me to be so dependable on bracing the clarinet between my knees. I know I do tend to hit the keys kind of hard sometimes. I'm going to try to break the habit of bracing the clarinet though. I notice that bracing the clarinet does interfere with the notes GBK mentioned above, and it probably doesn't allow me to project as much as I could. I have not tried a neck strap but I'll look into it.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-06-30 22:11
Dave,
AG likely developed that habit from his father, Joseph.
Joe always would brace the clar. on his knees (both knees held together)
to warm up or work on a reed (Like Bonade, the first order of business was to check your reed and balance it with rush). He sat in his captains chair at a desk with an onyx glass plate and tools ready to work.
That being said, both JG and AMG had you do the lesson standing up, and both would demonstrate a passage or etude in the standing position.
I do my lessons seated now, I have been reminded +not+ to rest the instrument on my knee. My age has no benefits.
AMG was considerable taller than his dad.
One of these days I must compile my papa Joe stories. He was quite the individual, a great teacher, wonderful player, and a super guy.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2005-06-30 22:16)
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Author: Meri
Date: 2005-06-30 22:50
My old teacher was really adamant about students not putting the bell on or between their knees...it was the other thing besides embouchure and use of air he was very picky about. For him, it was just above the knees, or, if the player is too short, at least in front of them.
The bell between the knees seems to have the effect of stuffing the sound. Also, putting the bell on the knees seems to lead to forgetting about putting a small upward force on the thumbrest.
Meri
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Author: Andrewcn
Date: 2005-07-01 00:35
I use a support that has a thin metal arm which braces the weight of the clarinet against the waist. This has the the weight-bearing effect - which is why you hold the instrument on your knees - without the undesirable side effects of muffling the sound, bad posture, and having problems playing when standing up.
There are other supports - neck straps don't do much about the weight, because you still have to hold the instrument out from your body, there is one that sits on your chair, but you'd still have problems playing standing up, and there are thumb supports which spread the weight across your hand more evenly.
See if you can borrow a few different types to see which support suits you. Holding the clarinet between the knees is not often the best solution.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-01 00:50
Neck straps do a lot and shouldn't be under rated.
Other gadgets are nice, but the straps do a lot.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-01 03:03
Gigliotti encouraged me to brace the clarinet against at least one knee. Marcellus certainly didn't discourage it, nor did Clark Brody. It actually isn't a bad thing for the pitch of a Buffet as it helps to naturally bring down the long B. By the same token they all had me practicing standing up as well. Do it both ways and you'll be fine with time.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-01 03:25
Gigliotti suggested to brace against one knee but never the 2 - it would muffle the sound.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-07-01 04:31
Not only does it muffle your sound, but it makes you flat! My old teacher does it, only during practice he told me. But he makes sure he doesn't do it for performances. But you'll notice when you move it from out of your knees, the tone goes up.
I guess you're not very good at playing a moving target. :P Try bass clarinet! Sits on the ground!
--CG
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-07-01 11:58
Actually he (AG) was on his ergonomics kick around then (had me move the thumb rests up) and was fine with both knees as long as I didn't cross my ankles and cover the bell. I'm short so it was never a problem with the bell being buried in my lap. Projection of the long B/E is just fine. Truth be told though, since he had me stand through lessons for breathing purposes, it was more or less moot. I now extend the same abuse to my students. Builds character, or muscle, or something like that...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-07-01 13:03
Let me clarify one thing...Papa Joe G braced his knees together, ankles apart, and the bell +rim+ was on the coapted knees.
The bell openning was ++wide open++ and pointing outwards and toward the floor at a 40 degree angle....it was never muffled, and the covered notes were never flat.
That is NOT the same as burying the bell in the knees nor pointing into a knee.
This allowed him to rotate the mouthpiece to check reed balance.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2005-07-01 14:20
There´s one still rare opportunity when it´s necessary to out the bell between one´s knees: To control the openings for closed tube notes, in effect to lower them a quartertone, in the basso register (Rehfeldt has this technique in his charts), it´s the only possibility to lower #F, F, E.
markus
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-07-01 14:39
Yes he did smoke.
He was in the Navy and on deck having a cig when a Kamakazi plane hit his boat.
AMG quit by the time I was with him in 1965, and probably earlier.
He dad smoked but quit after a heart attack. He was not smoking in 1962.
He had a pic of himself pheasant hunting, carrying a shotgun and some dead birds, with a butt dangling from his lips.....it was on his bulletin board waiting room area on Comly St in Phila.
He also had a baseball bat that he would dash out to threaten dogs when then tresspassed on his immaculate lawn.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2005-07-01 14:44)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-07-01 14:57
Yup 
I never thought of him as a smoker.
Really good that he quit - the quintet coachings I had with Murray Panitz would drive me nuts when he would whip out a cigarette.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-01 22:09
Hmmm.....lots of talk about going flat when you rest the bell on or between your knees. I wonder if any of those advocates have ever tested the effect with a tuner.....or are these just more parrot talk. I hear that fat knees lower it more than skinny knees and that if you've had knee implants you might go sharp.....and that Titanium implants don't go as sharp as cobalt alloy implants. So and so told me this. I just don't buy all this heresay.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-07-01 23:13
BobD- If you're so interested, why don't you try it yourself? Don't buy the heresay- get your tuner out!
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-07-01 23:28
Somehow he'd have to talk the surgeon into putting titanium in one knee and cobalt in the other, except then the close proximity of the two might affect the result. How to experiment with one fat knee and one skinny knee i simply don't know
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Author: clarinetmaniac101
Date: 2005-07-02 15:56
yes this is a bad habit I will never teach you how to hold your clarinet at an 45 degree angle, everybody says the clarinet should be inbetween your knees not you kness bracing around the clarinet. Now as far as tuning is concerned it dose when I fist did muffles your sound because all the sound is basically coming out of the bell, it is bad technique and bad habit. Just try to un habit yourself from doing that okay. GOOD LUCK.
Rashad
*clarinet
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2005-07-03 15:30
Maybe people will develop the habit of NOT bracing the clarinet between the knees when the clarinet weighs lesser.
Chan
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-07-03 20:02
Just noticed today that I actually hover my clarinet above my knees and then if a difficult fast passage comes, I'll clamp it between. Everything sounds the same and none of the bell gets covered up at the end or muffled.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-07-04 05:32
I've never done this, so I just tried it now, and even for a short person like me it is not comfortable, since it takes the clarinet too low and close.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-07-04 06:09
I have never done this either, and in fact I would have to lean forward to even REST the bell on my knees. To brace it BETWEEN my knees, I would really have lousy posture. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
Sue
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-04 15:20
"BobD- If you're so interested, why don't you try it yourself? Don't buy the heresay- get your tuner out! "
I'm really not that interested in trying to prove or disprove the opinions. I just don't believe that the sky is falling. I rest my bell edge on either knee, on both knees, and between my knees as I shift my seating position.
It works for me. On the rare occasions when I play standing upright...or nearly upright....I don't rest it on either knee.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-07-04 16:02
The whole thing of feeling a need to brace the clarinet sounds like a lot of tension to me, that someone's playing the keys by whacking them down or having their arms and shoulders so tight that they don't give when the fingers move.
If you practiced pressing the keys as lightly as needed to really seal the tone hole or press the key I wonder if the clarinet would move very much at all, not to mention saving your poor muscles a lot of distress. Difficult passages can increase mental tension that gets interpreted into tightness in fingers, arms, even legs! It's astonishing to some people how little pressure is actually needed to make the thing play.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-04 19:33
The clarinet was not designed or evolved with ergonomics as a goal and the instruments are significantly heavier today than were back in the boxwood days. Even a cursory search of the BB archives reveals how many players have physical problems due to trying to maintain the entire weight of a clarinet with only one thumb while keeping the other fingers relaxed enough to play it. The majority of teachers and players don't advocate resting the clarinet bell on one's knee simply out of custom. At least we don't have the neck problems that violin players have. Resting the clarinet on one's knee is the intelligent player's answer to outdated custom; it has nothing to do with tension, but rather, with common sense.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-04 19:44
"Now as far as tuning is concerned it dose when I fist did muffles your sound because all the sound is basically coming out of the bell,"
Now,Rashad, just what percentage of the sound comes out of the bell....do you think?
Bob Draznik
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Author: MSK
Date: 2005-07-05 01:46
I don't normally brace between my knees, but have caught myself doing so unintentionally, when very tired. It's habit I try to avoid. My sound is definitely worse when I do it, but then again it's when I'm tired and my embosure is nearly shot.
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