 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2005-06-28 11:49
This is not really a clarinet question, but I'm interested in your experiences. I play with a good community band; averages about 50-60 members; plays challenging music; and has wonderfull attendance (1000) at concerts (5 per year ). But we have a continuing problem, that of instrumentation. We can have as many as 5 French horns for one concert and then scramble for 2 or 3 at the next. Four tubas one time and 1 the next and so forth. This is a volunteer band, and members have other commitments, but it is frustrating. The good obviously outweighs the bad, but I'm wondering if you have had similar experiences? It drives our director nuts.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-28 12:24
I guess it's to be expected. After all, these are non-paid volunteer players with family and job responsibilities that take precedence over their music avocation.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-28 13:02
BB,
When I was a member of the Nebraska Wind Symphony (NWS) a few years ago, an attendance policy existed that was very clear about the expectations for attendance. The policy was enfored and often, someone who did not attend rehearsals as indicated in the policy was not allowed to perform.
The NWS Board enforced the policy that all members had agreed upon; new members (by audition only) were given a copy of the policy. The director was not tasked to be the "enforcer." Attendance was taken each week by a designated person each the section.
Does your community band have a board? Do others see the attendance issue as something that needs to be raised and discussed? Perhaps it is time to deal with this issue.
HRL
PS The NWS was a terrific community band. Here is the link to the website (the picture is many years old and the number of people shown is much less than the membership which was well balanced and about 65). NWS plays about 4 concerts per year and the level of music is about 4 to 5 (with an occasional 6). Erica Neidlinger is a terrific director and really energizes the band; I miss playing in that band a great deal! It was a wonderful experience.
http://www.nebraskawindsymphony.com/
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-28 13:33
I've been playing in our Tulsa Comm. Band for some 20 years, some sax, Bb cl, alto cl, but primarily bass cl, and with 2+ friends, tpt and Bb cl, drive the 45 miles each way from home, lately twice a week for reh and a [nearly] weekly concert. We have a couple of web sites, if you would like to read more. Yes, our several sections have attendance problems at times due to older age [I'm nearly 86], other more-demanding commitments, and a number of us play in other bands , in Tulsa, Sapulpa, Claremore, BVL etc, and in other musical groups, some of us are sufficiently skilled, to be in demand elsewhere. We are blessed by having 2 fine conductors and a number of present and retired band directors who teach us to play quite well. Our most challenging recent music includes, Dvorak's Slavonic Dances Gershwin's Cuban Raphsody, Strauss' Der Rosenkavalier Waltzes, and the [now] Fantasy on Yankee Doodle, where I play alto cl in pref. to bass! As in "Chorus Line", we do it for love. Many BBoarders had/have similar experiences, and will prob. respond. Hang in there !, its good fun. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-06-28 15:17
I'd like to ask Buster Brown a question -- How do you get 1000 people at your concerts? I'm guessing that they must be outdoors, as most indoor venues won't hold 1000 people, but even so, the question remains.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-28 15:36
Don Poulsen wrote:
> I'd like to ask Buster Brown a question -- How do you get 1000
> people at your concerts? I'm guessing that they must be
> outdoors, as most indoor venues won't hold 1000 people, but
> even so, the question remains.
I would think most venues cabable of hosting a 60-member ensemble would be able to seat 1000 audience members. Most basketball and hockey arenas seat several thousand, and IME most fine-arts theaters at least come close to that, with many larger than that.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-06-28 16:35
I stand corrected, but I'm still curious as to how a community band attracts that size of an audience. Maybe there's something the two groups I play with could use.
Some more specific questions would be:
What is the size of the local community?
What type of publicity do you have?
Are the concerts formal or, say, outdoors in the park?
Are your concerts in conjunction with some other event?
Do you issue tickets? Gratis or paid?
One of the groups I play with has on occasion had a comparably large audience, but it was at a long-standing Fourth-of-July celebration that had other features as well. (We took over for the venerated Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra.)
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-06-28 16:38
Don Poulsen wrote:
> I stand corrected, but I'm still curious as to how a community
> band attracts that size of an audience.
Me, too. Around here an audience of a couple-hundred is pretty good...
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-06-28 17:10
I have played in 3 different community bands now for 22 years-not all at the same time though. And each has suffered the same attendance problems you discribed at one time or the other. One of the three had an attendance policy, but sometimes it had to be overlooked for a variety of reasons. I agree with anyone who says it's just a fact of life! A bigger problem is those who take a folder home or check out an instrument and don't show up the next week. What a mess that can be. As far as audience attendance, we will be playing a patriotic concert tonight, and we expect 1500 or so, if last years attendance is an indication. At Christmas we have about 700 to 1000. Other concerts average about 200 to 300 or so. The band I currently play BC and Contra BC with has about 60 to 70 members from teens to 70+ in age. We are a small town with a population of about 15k-of course the surronding countryside provides the census for us to do the things we do. We will play at the D-Day Museum on July 24th in New Orleans, if any of you are in town. That should be huge, and we will join a sister band and likley blow the Misssissippi away from the Big Easy.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-28 20:30
>>>I play with a good community band; averages about 50-60 members; plays challenging music; and has wonderfull attendance (1000) at concerts (5 per year ).
I think that's fantastic. To get that sort of attendance, you must be doing something right?
The problem with commitment, discipline and organisation of the orchestra is a complex issue. Schools will have one approach, whereas community bands will have another. Without commitment and seld-discipline, a lazy musician lets down all the rest.
Should there be rules? How strict? Are they enforced? How to build the team spirit?...etc..etc
Not easy.
Best wishes,
Steve
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-06-28 20:48
Our's is on July 4th and has fireworks towards the end of it, or at the end. It's my first year in a community band. Apparantly a huge amount of people show up though. For fireworks ot music, I don't know.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-06-28 22:14
I see no problem with compulsory attendance unless 'reasonable' excuse can be provided. I played in a community orchestra that had this policy and it soon weeded out those who lacked commitment. Was frustrating at times, but mostly worked brilliantly. If you don't have a charter of rules for playing, I suggest you talk to the band's committee and elect a subcommitte to write such a beast, it's not difficult and I've been on these before, too.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2005-06-29 12:06
Appreciate all the info. I like the idea of taking attendance. If you haven't rehersed, you don't play.
Now as to how we get a thousand at our concerts. I'm fortunate to live in a relatiively small resort/golf/retirement community. Some of you probably know the name since the US Open was just played here. Our town has a population of 10,000 (25,000 inimmediate area of 3 towns). Our retirees are older and love to attend concerts as they did when they were young. The resort provides us with a place to play since it gives them great PR, community involvement and the hotel guests can attend. The resort provides us their Grand Ballroom and typically sets up 1200 chairs. We generally have all the chairs full. For our July 4th concert we'll have people standing in back and sitting in the aisles. It's terrific!! They are a very appreciative audience.
If you haven't guessed, I live in Pinehurst, NC. Our band (the Moore County Band) also has a website. Don't remember link, but you can find it in Goggle.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-06-29 12:21
BB,
The band's wonderful website is located at http://moorecountyband.com/
This looks like a terrific place to be located. Having played golf in the area several times, the hospitality and weather are very much to my liking.
You are a lucky man!
HRL
PS With the Carolina Hotel as a venue, how can you lose!
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2005-06-29 14:10
Incidentally, we also have a community college jazz (big-18 piece) band that's also a volunteer organzation. College sponsers it, but it's not made up of college students. We get as many as 1500 people to our outdoor concerts in the summer and nearly 1000 at the indoor concerts. Check the crowd.
Our price is right. All concerts, band and jazz, are free. The jazz band does charge when it does dances and other events.
Move to Pinehurst when you retire. Enjoy music, golf, good people and good weather.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-06-29 15:41
I think if you don't have rules to address the situation, it is a fact of life as has been pointed out and the rules depend on the type of organization you want for yourself. For every rule you put into place, it is likely to cause someone to drop out.
The community band I play in (The Old Dam Community Band) is a very friendly organization with no audition and no strict attendence policies since it was founded on the idea of providing a musicial setting for a bunch of rethreads such as myself and promoting community music. We do about 8 free public concerts a year, typically outdoors.
This would probably drive many directors nuts but we do not print a program for our concerts, instead the director chooses the pieces based on what instrumentation he has at the concert. It makes for some scary situations as you might imagine but we generally manage without too many problems.
Perhaps the easiest thing to do is something we did over the winter and that was to send out a questionaire to the members. Find out what the membership is looking for and go from there. Your board may have a great vision, but if it isn't shared by the volunteer musicians, you most likely will have problems.
Another good resource is the Community Band list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/c-m/
Best
Rick
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-29 16:20
A fine thread of comments/experiences, ALSO, what a great Web-site, BB, in the "piney woods?", W of Fayettville, NC. We are mentally-ready [its hot in OK !] if not physically, for a second retirement location [first was in Durango, CO] where there was music and pleasant living also. NC is somewhat closer to a granddaughter, about to have a greatX2daughter for us to spoil ! Back to bands, I've copied a few pages as suggestions to our board and to our web-experts, well done by all. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-06-29 20:16
I started this year playing with my community's town band. They, too, attract a large audience. I live in seashore town with a large summer population. There is also a steady year-round population with a strong commitment to the arts. Town band rehearsals start in April, and we begin weekly concerts starting this week through mid-August. We play outside, at a band shell, aside a harbor. Lots of room for audience (not the growing band, however), and many attractions within walking distance. Residents from local rest homes attend on buses.
The band is quite good with a wonderful director. The musicians range from junior high to ...you name it. There is no attendance policy - but mostly everybody shows up every week. My sense is that, over the years, a strong ethic has built up in this organization and it is a matter of pride to say that one plays with the town band. It's really wonderful and quite amazing. They play some tough pieces, as well as the usual summer fare. I'm enjoying it immensely. As John Moses says, it's great to see so many people listening to live music.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Buster Brown
Date: 2005-06-30 11:55
Don, glad you enjoyed the website. One of our sax players is a "geek" and loves doing web pages. Therefore, you'd have to consider it an "amatuer" job. Not sure what it would cost for a "professional" job. But, the amatuer job was free. I've sent him a note about how much you liked the site.
Need a second retirement home. Hope ya'll try Pinehurst . We could use another golfer and musician. What do you play?
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-06-30 12:40
My band , South Berks Concert Band, has around 25 members, and like others, we play a lot of challenging music. This tends to keep the committed people and put off those who are not prepared to work. Also, a few years ago, (before I was involved), members were asked to pay an annual membership fee once a year rather than a weekly subscription. This both makes the Treasurer's life easier, and once people have payed an annual fee, they want their money's worth. We do 2-3 formal concerts a year, several park bandstand jobs in the summer and carolling at Christmas. For our formal concerts, we work with Charity organisations. This is mutually beneficial - they get a cut of the proceeds from the concert, and in return, they sell tickets for us so we get backsides on seats!
Although everyone is comitted, there are still work and family pressures that get in the way sometimes, meaning that not everyone can make every rehearsal. Our Musical Director does find it frustrating sometimes - we rehearse a piece and next week, someone prominant is missing, or was missing during the last rehearsal, and we have to do the work again. We are a very friendly band, existing "to play music for our own pleasure and that of our audiences". There is only one unforgivable crime - taking music away to practice and not returning it next week!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-06-30 15:38
The best community group that I am involved in, the Richmond Pops Band, suffers few attendance problems and plays three times per year to audiences of 2500-3200. Much of this is due to the efforts of the director.
The larger audiences started when he struck a deal for us to play our concerts in the atrium of a large, historic, downtown hotel. The atmosphere was much more attractive to the general public than school auditoriums, outdoor amphitheatres, etc. To fill the room, and provide some variety, he would have one of the local amateur choral groups share the venue with us. Each group brought its usual audience, and variety and venue generated more public interest.
The director has no compunction about giving us the hardest level of music that we can manage to struggle through, and while this has proved frustrating in some ways, it has also attracted a lot of musicians with more professional credentials, who want to participate in a more polished product. It's amazing what a community band can do with the equivalent of ringers as section leaders, and our improvement has been meteoric.
About attendance and discipline. Many of our more qualified players are folks have who gone in other directions after giving up on symphony seats, or who are music teachers in the schools, etc. Professional ethics and mutual respect have made them often far more reliable in attendance and behavior than a lot of the band's old guard. The better the band gets, the more candidates to play--and the more obvious a warning to the unreliable that they cannot simply come and go as they please.
In the fall of 2001, our director set up a concert in a 3200-seat venue in response to September 11th. Strong patriotic themes, and participation by the US Army Chorus did the pulling. Corporate sponsors were sought and found. I thought it would be a bust, but it was highly successful and we have since moved out of the hotel venue and are exclusively in this 3200-seat facility. This also helps to attract players, and this has caused the band's quality to snowball especially in the last 3-4 years. It has also led the Army Chorus to do several return engagements.
Two other director-related factors: First, there is a mailing list for the audience and the director is meticulous about being responsive to them. One reward for this is a lot of financial donations. Second, he takes big chances. This is true both in the difficulty of the music involved, and in the selection of such a large and expensive venue. The band operates under pressure and that's by design. The down side of this is that the risks are real, preparation is not always 'fun' and gratification is hard to have until the performance is actually behind us. This suits some band members more than others, and that's going to be an issue for any group trying to get to the next level.
My advice to folks who want a quality band with big audiences. STICK WITH IT. If you are a strong musician, a little loyalty and humility on your part can set a tremendous example for others, and your presence will be attractive to other strong musicians. But all this takes time, and there will be some frustration. It also means that you will not necessarily be the strongest player on your instrument.
I have been involved in some other fine groups and am confident that this is the universal formula for improvement. Not all directors are as resourceful as the the one I've described, but I have seen most groups that I'm involved in improve tremendously in the last five years as a grass roots effort. Another community group that I'm involved with has twice been flown to St. Paul, MN to perform for German-related events.
It's also important to understand that not everyone is going to agree on everything. You have to be dedicated to good performance, but you have to perform things that audiences will actually want to hear. For our folks, that's light classics, Broadway favorites, and patriotic toe-tappers. The last concert featured a 20-minute salute to the Grand Old Opry complete with vocalists and a country rhythm section. (and played mostly in the original country keys!) A good solid symphony for wind ensemble would've cleared out all 3200 seats faster than a fire alarm.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2005-06-30 15:55)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-06-30 16:16
Amen to what Allencole says. I was reluctant to join my group as they seemed to have a glut of woodwind players. However, I came to know the director, and she encouraged me to attend. I brought both sax and clarinet, and asked, "Where do you want me?" She indicated clarinet, and asked which part I would like to play. I was aware that there were many clarinetists, and said I would play wherever I was needed. She gratefully sighed, "Then "2nd" would be great, thank you so much". Humility is definitely a factor. I am playing next to two older gentlemen who are delightful, and a young girl who is an absolute whiz and lots of fun. The music ranges through everything you could imagine. It truly is a blast. I think what allencole has experienced has happened here as well; many previously professional musicians have belonged to this group for quite some time, and the quality and ethic presented has attracted others. Everyone benefits, as long as they don't have too big a head.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Veldeb
Date: 2005-06-30 18:29
Instrumentation is always challenging.. what do you do with 15 trombones and 4 flutes? Fortunately, we're usually not that bad off but we do selectively advertize.. for instance here <G> for clarinets and other specialty web sites for particular instruments and we even get hits! We are non audition, but with a strict attendance policy.. 3 misses (for any reason) and your section leader and director can audition you on difficult parts to see if youre ready for concert. Our director can bounce and the board can bounce but if the director bounces, you can appeal to the board. I'm also our webmaster and its been a fun learning experience. One of the things that has helped us span the chasm from former pros to the "eek ive not played in 20 yrs" is to post the pieces we're going to be doing week to week and hold sectionals where the ex pros help out with tough passages freeing up the main rehearsal for musicality rather than woodshedding. We also have FUN... yes we work hard, but our rehearsals are near areas with good eats places for folks to convene before or after rehearsal. We also have a variety of ensembles to keep people interested, symphonic band, marching band, swing band and small ensembles (i'm in "La Reeda Loca -- a clarinet quartet) Hope those thoughts help!
Blake
www.dcdd.org
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-06-30 18:38
I coordinate a community band which is probably not a typical one, it's The L.A. Community Klezmer Band and I'm more of an (unpaid) musician "wrangler" who communicates practice times and gig info via e-mail, rather than a music director. We have about 15 active members. The biggest problem we have is people showing up late and being somewhat noisy as they come in late. I realize that people have lives outside the band and may not be able to make practices or may have to come late, but it irks the others in the band and sometimes band members want me to kick out or "fire" somebody.
What kind of "rules" would be good for an informal situation like this. Not just about coming in late, but other behaviour which might be problematic in an informal community band situation.
I'll copy this to the ethnic clarinet section.
Perhaps this would be better as a new thread, I don't know.
[ Let's keep all community band discussion on this thread - GBK ]
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Author: Kelly Riccio-Chapman
Date: 2005-07-01 02:05
I played in a community band for a few years in high school. If nothing else, it was a confidence building experience. It was pretty seasonal (1 rehearsal in January, February, and March, and then weekly from April - September as well as 1-2 concerts/week May-September), which made it a much easier schedule for most of the players. At the beginning of the season, they handed out a calender of all the jobs for the season, and had us return it indicating which jobs we would be attending. That way we were only expected to show up at the rehearsal the week before the jobs we would be attending (in fact, they didn't want you there if you weren't do that weeks jobs at all). I think that was a pretty reasonable attendance policy. It took the newbies the first season to learn the massive amounts of music the group rotated through. Luckilly, they play 50% "wind ensemble" music, and 50% standard marches. So, after playing the Stars & Stripes Forever about 30 times in concert over the course of a couple of months, one would have a pretty good grip on things.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-07-01 05:21
Veldeb said:
what do you do with 15 trombones and 4 flutes?
melt them down and make a trincket?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-07-01 22:51
I currently play with a Community Band and enjoy it a lot. However, as mentioned, there are downfalls. One is the volunteer thing--lack of instrumentation from time to time, etc. The other is the level of playing skill varies between mediocre to excellent. We do require players to have completed high school band, but often a player joins the band (no try-out required) and isn't "up to snuff." This results in concerts that are subject to nasty "surprises."
However, I love being a part of it because I've made a lot of friends in the band that I wouldn't have made if I hadn't been a part. Also, it keeps me on my toes for reading and keeps my skill level honed because I play 1st. This keeps me ready to go to Israel in the Fall and play with an orchestra that is QUITE good. I've also learned many Big Band tunes and others that I wouldn't have learned without the Community Band.
People in our city love it.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-07-02 19:52
I live in Missouri and I play with the Cameron Municipal Band (tax-supported) as well as the Liberty Community Band (for fun). Both play fairly challenging music; well, we rehearse for an hour, then rest for an hour, and ATTEMPT to play the averagely-challenging music I hate it when it's really humid and hot outside, because I use my R13 (not Greenline) in both of these outdoor ensembles. Anyway....I have fun playing with both groups!
-Tyler
Post Edited (2005-10-12 22:06)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-07-02 22:52
The quality/consistency issue is a tough one. It's really tough to have a casual situation in terms of socializing and commitment, if effort and attitudes are too casual towards the product being produced.
One thing that has been a strong driving force for my community band has been the level of finesse in the choirs that we share our concerts with. While some of that pop choral repertoire seems absolutely laughable, the level of execution that I'm seeing is no laughing matter. While many singers can't really understand the idea of keeping your chops up on an instrument, instrumentalists need to understand that we have CHOSEN a task that is not 100% easy, and that we have certain duties to the listener.
Also, many of us participate in multiple groups and invite other strong players to join. This way, we have a lot of rank-and-file people who practice at least some, or who play in other groups as well.
As people who double-dip or triple-dip in community groups become greater in number, we are experiencing a demographic change of sorts. More people are coming in who are addicted to the activity and who have music performance--and music colleagues--as a larger-than-average component of their social lives.
The biggest problem in my area is that we have an awful lot of groups, many because of splits/squabbles. I'd be interested in hearing how some groups are dealing with egos and with player retention.
Allen Cole
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-07-02 23:41
Our band has much the same problem - too many trumpets!
I think your difficulties may stem for the demand for reliable players in the range that often goes missing. Low brass doesn't draw lots of players, from the earliest years, and they're sorely missed in retirement.
We're over-run with clarinet players, for example and have TWO bass claris - no more. They're virtually inaudible in the audience when the rest of us are in full blare...
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-07-02 23:54
I joined a community band briefly and have been playing with the local junior college wind esnsemble for some time.
The junior college motto is 'make music with whoever shows up.' We get ringers when certain parts are short, often volunteers, sometimes paid. My son has sight read the third parts to help out. We have some fine players and some others. The kids at the community college seem to cut class a lot, pity. I can't imagine what could be more enjoyable.
The community band was wonderful socially, but I was over committed as it was. I think however that the rehearsals have more draw for me than performance. I just enjoy playing music, performing is not as fun.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-03 01:17
In response to allencole - our community band has very little of the ego stuff going on. I think this is attributable to the dynamic, positive energy of our director. She treats everyone equally, champions those who are very young or old, and constantly reminds everyone that every single player's contribution is important. She also occasionally points out that she knows "No one gets ALL the notes". All this is done with barely time to chat, much less get a decent breath. We plow through tons of music and very few fail to show up.
However, the ego thing does happen with smaller groups in the area. It's difficult because a player can be casually invited to play with a small group, and after a few rehearsals, realize that they are not compatible due to their ability or general style. Groups splinter apart and regroup, sort of like migrating DNA.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-07-03 12:16
Hi Everyone,
While it is heartening to hear all the community band success stories, I have recently experienced a not-so-pretty situation. In a local community band in which I have played for several years, the director has seemed to have lost his way and the result is a very sad and frustrating situation.
Although the band continues to perform and rehearse, the director seems to have lost his focus on things like proper rehearsal techniques, music selection, performance management, and has generally made a pretty good mess of a host of other personnel/performance-based items. To make matters worse, his disposition and receptiveness to any suggestions from any members of the band (many are professionals as well as current or former directors as well) is not evident. Personally, I reached a point where things became too intolerable for me to endure any more. After one particular “encounter” with the director that was a one-sided shouting match, I quietly disengaged from the band. I think his heavily charged emotional tirade was not new behavior (he is a good musician and the director at a small local HS with about 15 years of elementary and HS teaching experience).
All the wonderful news information above seems to center on the director being a guiding light and the membership of the band making a conscious effort to work hard and thrive. Without a strong and charismatic leader and a committed team, a less than marvelous situation will probably result.
I have discussed my plight with several of my former band mates (two that were on the board – which never meets) and I sense that most of the band members are happy with plodding along with a business as usual attitude or don’t sense the underlying problems. I guess as a former director and still a working musician, I know too much.
It appears that I have made the best choice given the situation although an exodus of some pretty good players continues. The sad thing is that this 60+ member band could be an outstanding local as well as regional wind ensemble. What a waste!
HRL
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-07-03 19:04
This isn't an uncommon circumstance, and in my area it has been the cause of old bands splitting and new ones being formed.
On the surface, it might seem like the director needs to be ousted. But that usually results in the formation of a new band by members loyal to the ousted director. If other band members are failing to see a real problem with him, this scenario would be a likely one. Perhaps leaving the band is the best way to make your statement--although it might be good to make it known why you are leaving.
It's too bad that the board of directors isn't more active. In many bands, the board is just a formality, but I've seen at least one case in which a board really kept a band glued together in the face of in inexperienced and somewhat self-centered director.
In my most successful group, the band director is not universally loved and he knows it. Rehearsal technique is not the best, and many fine musicians feel like they are being talked down to as if they were middle schoolers. This accounts for the exit of many players, and has served to actually strengthen the band as we 'trade up' to better players. Some exiting members have a legitimate beef with the director, but many have a chip on their shoulder which he merely (and correctly IMO) knocks off.
But retention is better and better because the group is highly loyal to itself, largely because of its quality and its popularity--which are largely the result of this director's efforts. I have been annoyed by a number of things in the past, and have suffered one or two minor affronts, but overall I do feel that the band is worthwhile and that I am appreciated as a member. One thing about the influx of professionals into the group is that many are already experienced in burying their egos, and know enough to appreciate just how much of a job the director has not only in working the band, but in lining up the total package of venue, guests, etc. that attracts those large crowds.
Our guy can get a little wacky at times, but his heart is generally in the right place. He also gets plenty of feedback from PLENTY of vocal critics within the band. I'm not saying that Hank's director isn't a problem, but I hope that this description of my director will cause everyone to reconsider the critical eye that we often cast on those in charge. We get out of groups what we put into them, and I think that group spirit can not only bolster a worthwhile director, but is essential in order to have the unanimity necesssary to replace one without splitting the group.
Also, problems with a director could just be a phase. I feel like my director has actually improved over the last few years in rehearsal technique, temperment, and programming saavy. He is human and has his foiables.
That said, I've seen one situation very close to Hank's. In that case, a strong board of directors simply didn't rubber-stamp whatever the director did. This led him to depart of his own accord with the band still intact.
Here is a pet peeve that I have experienced with a couple of directors: Getting a little too esoteric in their tastes while studying music at college. I went through the whole wind ensemble things years ago, and today am a lot happier to see pieces like Jalousie or The Blue Danube, than most of the stuff that I'd hear from a college wind ensemble.
Allen Cole
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-07-05 18:05
Copied below is the draft of an e-mail which (after revision) I am planning to send to members of the grassroots 15-20 member community band which I organize. I don't know if this will help solve any problems. I thought I would post it here to see if any BB readers have any comments which you can add to this thread, thanks, Ken
text of my e-mail is below :
**************************************************************With several gigs behind us and since we are starting a new year as a community klezmer band, I wanted to address some issues....and I think it is important to work some things out before we continue and before new people join us.
1) First of all, I make an effort to communicate as clearly as I can by way of e-mail in order to give information about what songs to work on, gigs, practice times and locations etc. This band could not exist without e-mail. Now I don't mind repeating things at practice that I have stated in e-mails from time to time. But I do expect you to read them because if you don't, then we have to take time away from the music to discuss things that have already been worked out. Example: I find that even if I e-mail out a songlist for a gig and even pass out printed sheets at a gig with a list of songs, some people still act clueless about what songs we are doing.
2) Disruptive behavior of any kind.
I appreciate that people have busy lives and may not be able to show up at a stated time. But if you do come in late, be quiet. If you have concerns about songs that we play or don't play express yourself calmly, or better yet, send me an e-mail before we practice. If you have problems with other people in the group, talk to me about it. Or talk to our harmonica player. Traditionally klezmer bands have a retired shrink to smooth things over so feel free to avail yourself of his mediation skills. Let's try to be grown up and "professional" so that we can work together to make good music that people enjoy.
If you are disruptive you may find that you get dropped from our e-mail list.
3) I am aware that we don't really have a music director. People in the group have different feelings about hiring someone. I would prefer that we try to make do with our own talent and not have to charge dues to hire a paid director. I welcome anybody pitching in and helping in this regard: finding songs, arranging songs, etc.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-05 19:18
Ken:
As a member of a similar small group, and a community band, here are my thoughts upon reading your email:
First, it sounds as though your group has a leader and it is you, whether they have appointed you or not. Was that your intention?
Second, it sounds as though you are angry and are fed up with certain types of annoying behavior, lack of preparedness, etc. Just a suggestion, you might want to give yourself a few days to reflect and see if that's really the tone you're going for. If I received that email, I might be a little offended, even though I can truly see what you're getting at.
It might be more effective to praise the positive, thank them for being prepared for rehearsal by reading your emails, etc. Also - some people do not like email, unlike us computer geeks. They will not use it and seldom read it, even though you ask them. A practice list given to them on a piece of paper might be more effective.
Good luck!
Sue Tansey
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Author: A2Clarinetist
Date: 2005-07-05 20:22
I am in three community bands.
One doesn't have any attendance policy whatsoever (although I have never missed).
The other two don't let you play a concert if you miss more than two rehearsals. The two with the attendance policy are much better than the one without the attendance policy.
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-07-05 21:37
Thanks Sue for your comments and I think you are right about stressing the positve and finding the right tone. That's why I posted it here first. I'm revising it before I send it out. And I think I'll wait several days to reflect on the whole thing. .....I want this community band experience to be a fun thing for both the audiences that we may have and for the group, so I don't want to alienate people by sending out something too strongly worded. Ken
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-07-06 07:50
What exactly are you trying to do when you arrange songs as you mention? Klezmer is not classical music. Basically, in a large-enough band, trumpets carry the melody, clarinets harmonize above or play the melody an octave up, saxes below, and the low brass oom-pah or tailgate, being part of the rhythm section (except for solos) with the accordions and drums.
When it comes together, it's pretty raucous. This certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't tighten things up in rehearsals, but you sound as if YOU are tightening up ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) .
Maybe you need to focus less on getting gigs and more on just playing together for fun, i.e., jamming, not rehearsing, especially as you mention you don't yet have a music director, so you don't have significant expenses that will force you to find gigs.
Folk bands, as opposed to those that play from professionally arranged parts, like concert bands, begin as agglomerations of people playing "tunes" for fun. When they play a gig, they are playing what they are totally comfortable with. They avoid challenge -- in performance. By the time they perform the challenging pieces, those pieces are no longer challenging. No one feels stressed to make multiple rehearsals or focus intently during them, with the exception of maybe one or two special events per year; even then, the challenge is much less than a concert band. Potlucks following rehearsals are a staple of jams. You've always got to eat after you play .
Slowly, your band improves. Because cameraderie is the main focus and there is no one "raising the bar", weaker players do hang on and your band is never great, merely just good. But, from within your group, a few of the stronger players separate off from time to time and form truly excellent small bands. Some of them don't play any more with the community band but some do; thus the community band is an incubator.
Think in these terms. In the end, you'll have groups of people who play music people actually want to hear and ask you to perform, not a band that begs for donations for support like classical music and for whose performances audiences show up out of a sense of obligation or getting culture.
Steve Epstein
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-07-06 20:30
Thanks for your comments Steve. Most of the music we have found just gives us the melody. When we were working with a singer, she, of course, did not want the melody instruments playing on top of her. Now in recordings I hear of Klezmer groups like the Klezmer conservatory band you hear the clarinet "noodling" around the singer on songs. I don't have noodling skills yet. The noodling is not written into any of the music I have found. Isn't that improvisation? We were put under some pressure to be "pro" when we were given a gig to provide a klezmer intro to an interview with Aaron Lansky of the National Yiddish Book Center. This was broadcast on CSPAN and local cable and we performed with a singer who sang 3 songs in Yiddish.
However that gig was an exception and mostly we are in it for the fun.
But again, your comments in your first paragraph especially are very helpful.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-07-07 02:40
I also have organised an no audition community folk band, playing Balkan music. We have no rules what so ever, only peer pressure, no one much practices and we aren't very good at all. We do have wonderful desserts, complain about the government and have only had one person quit in the 6 or 7 years we've been doing this. She wanted to play Mexican music instead and still keeps our email going for us. I transcribe some of our arrangements, some come from Balkan camps or the old standards of Balkan. Our weaker players tag along and in our case no one every singles anyone out. We understand that the goal is social, to make something like music.
I have seen Balkan bands trying to be a Professional Balkan Band, with some excellent players, but these are not community no audition bands. Some fight with each other endlessly with large egos clashing. There are actually a few that our community no audition band would prefer never join us, the fun would be work instead. Some seem to get along well, some of the absolute top players actually, and have long term playing partners.
Our name changes, we're all pretty old. Sometimes we play as Ginny and the Geritones, or the Stari Momas and Babas, the Not Ready for Prime Time Band, the Never Ready Band or as Ne Gotov (not finished, or half baked in Bulgarian.) We have a Ne Gotov attitude.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-07-07 03:00
Kfeder:
I agree with Sue - sit on the letter and rewrite. It's way too wordy and kvetchy. Just state your issues clearly and simply without all the fuss. Three items; three sentences. That's it.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2005-07-07 05:49
kfeder@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Steve. Most of the music we have
> found just gives us the melody. When we were working with a
> singer, she, of course, did not want the melody instruments
> playing on top of her. Now in recordings I hear of Klezmer
> groups like the Klezmer conservatory band you hear the clarinet
> "noodling" around the singer on songs. I don't have noodling
> skills yet. The noodling is not written into any of the music I
> have found. Isn't that improvisation?
Noodling can only be practiced by noodling. It is improv, but simpler than jazz improv. You just need to know what the chord is and play a few notes that are mostly in that chord, an octave up. This would not be adequate for a professional, but you have to get started.
When I play for contra dances we sometimes do singing squares. These are done to ancient ragtime tunes like Just Because, Bill Bailey, Trail of the Lonesome Pine (not so ancient), with the caller singing the call to the melody instead of the actual lyrics. The caller does not want us on the melody with him, either, so we take turns "noodling" underneath. It's like a combination of improv soloing and comping. A great learning experience.
>
> We were put under some pressure to be "pro" when we
> were given a gig to provide a klezmer intro to an interview
> with Aaron Lansky of the National Yiddish Book Center. This was
> broadcast on CSPAN and local cable and we performed with a
> singer who sang 3 songs in Yiddish.
> However that gig was an exception and mostly we are in it
> for the fun.
> But again, your comments in your first paragraph
> especially are very helpful.
Ah, always a tough choice whether or not to accept a prestigious gig before you are ready, the pros and cons.
Just curious, Aaron Lansky, was he related to Meyer?
Steve Epstein
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-07-07 16:18
A few responses to previous posts:
I don't know if Aaron Lansky is related to Meyer, but Aaron is considered the Bugsy Siegel (Moe Green in the Godfather) of Yiddish books.
The band wound up on the cutting room floor with the local cable broadcast but you can see our bass player's bass behind Lansky. I haven't seen the CSPAN broadcast.
You all were right about the kvetchy tone of my draft of the e-mail letter about community band rules and conduct. Good thing I didn't send it . I intend to take a much lighter approach.
And now back to learning how to noodle.......
Ken
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-07 16:46
Ken,
Glad to be of help, I know this about myself as well so I recognized it right away in your post! Good luck in your noodling. I love that music, but have never played it and have never heard any in my area. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Sue Tansey
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-07-08 00:02
did you know that if you do a search of the word "kvetchy" on this site, there's only one hit
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-08 03:13
Well, my outlook has changed somewhat, following our community band's first public performance of the year this evening. There were many, many players who had not attended any rehearsals, but apparently have played with the group before (this is my first year). Some of them took first chair positions - suggesting, in my mind, that they are probably being paid. So apparently I was assuming a degree of cooperation and altruism that really isn't there.
Additionally, there are a certain number of chairs set up - if you don't show up by a certain time, the chairs are taken away. If more than enough players show up on a part, the player plays a different part. There were not enough players to demonstrate what would happen if there were too many for the entire section. There is not enough room on the bandstand. So now I'm kvetching. Oh well.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-07-09 02:32
Sue, don't jump to conclusions without asking questions. Any number of smaller community bands have relationships with ringers who are either sometime members, or who are friends with the group otherwise.
These people may be in first-chair positions either as an enticement to participate, or more likely because some of the existing principals may lack confidence about soloing, high notes, etc. I had this experience a couple of summers ago in a group where I played two or three concerts because I had friends in the band, but never attended a rehearsal. My only payment was free food at their cookout.
Another issue is that of payment. It's hard to imagine a community band paying for a large number of ringers. But my area has networks of people who play in multiple bands and who are good friends. This makes for a lot of folks who are willing to help out.
Is it possible that this is the situation with your band?
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-07-09 03:14
It's likely that I am jumping to conclusions. One of the reasons I did, I guess, is that a seasoned player reported some of these players come from over an hour's drive away, from urban areas with other performing opportunities. Maybe they come for the salt air, who knows.
There are some very, very good players who moved over a seat so it was quite surprising. As I had said earlier in the thread, it's a good group. But, since I am new, I shouldn't speculate. In any case, it's really not my business, I have a part to play and I'll just play it!
Thanks.
Sue
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-07-09 16:36
In the junior college wind ensemble I play in the paid ringers nearly always play the lower chairs if we're short on players. It's really odd to hear the third trumpet part being absolutely nailed while first is merely adequate for the band level. Most band members make the performance or at least give advanced warning. The exception I recall is when my then 15 year old son sight read first, (he often has played with us to fill out a lower clarinet part), because neither first clarinet player made the gig, only myself and last chair. Make music with who shows up.
There are a handful of older players who play during semesters that a particular instrument is lacking who will play the lower parts anyway. The conductor likes to give the kids a chance.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-10-12 16:09
Hi,
I am elevating this thread again as I just found out that the director for the community band that I was in who "seemed to have lost his way" has resigned effective after the Holiday Concert. Although I am getting this all second-hand, he cited wanting to spend more time with his family as the main reason. Interestingly, there was not an evident ground swell for him to stay on. It would seem that others have sensed that it is time for a change.
I am not interested in being the new director although I have the education, training, and experience; I'd prefer to let the younger folks have their opportunity. I expect to return to the clarinet section (the prinicipal has said "we still have your chair waiting for you" which made me feel pretty good).
HRL
Post Edited (2005-10-12 16:57)
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2005-10-12 19:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not interested in being the new director although I have the education, training, and experience; I'd prefer to let the younger folks have their opportunity. I expect to return to the clarinet section (the prinicipal has said "we still have your chair waiting for you" which made me feel pretty good).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have neither the education, training, nor the experience to conduct, but even if I did, I wouldn't want to do it. I've never seen the attraction of leading music compared to even just filling out the oft-scant middle voiced parts. And top of all that, you have to deal with personality issues, venues, concerts, making sure they right percussion pieces are there, etc.
-JfW
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-12 20:11
Some of the issues johnsonfromwisconsin mentions can be handled by an active board of directors.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-10-12 20:30
How lucky you are Hank that you have such a sensitive principal.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-12 21:27
Hank - It "sounds" to me like you should be at least an "associate conductor-musical director", in our band we have such, with two skilled guys working well together and for frequent relief duty. In particular, the starting-off, getting-to-know-you period is all important to insure smooth-sailing IMHO. Becomming quite well acquainted here, I know you could DO IT. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Grant
Date: 2005-10-12 22:20
MY wife and I play in three community band s in the Seattle area. One has 65-70 members meets once a week during the school year for two hours and plays fairly difficult stuff. we have a fine director who takes us through tough rehersals with a social break in the middle. We get good but not perfect attendance from the band I wish we could fill our auditorium when we play. I think our quarterly dues system helps. We pay for it so we better go. We use some ringers to cover things like bassoon parts.
The other two bands have the same director. One never rehearses they just play at Retirement homes, church picnics etc. the other does practice and plays at similar venues. Since both have the same director they augment each other when practical. My wife and I get great pleasure from all three bands in different ways.
The big group has more challenge to the music but the other two have such appreciative audiences.
One is a band sponsered by the Letter Carriers union.I understand there are only about five of those in the country. Any one else play in one?
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-10-13 01:32
Hi,
Draz: She is very sensitive to us "older"players.
Don B: I'd be willing to be one of the support/associate people; that would be very helpful and it is not that difficult to handle such a relationship as that with the right team.
Johnson: You understand things very well. The issues you point are can bring an adult to his or her knees easily.
Don P: Not having the Board handle a lot of the issues pointed out by Johnson was the Achille's Heel for the soon-to-be-former director.
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-10-13 12:15
Hank...So you are posing as an Elderly Clarinet player to get sympathy. You are even more devious than I suspected.
Bob Draznik
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The Clarinet Pages
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