 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-23 23:01
Of the big 4 (Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer, and Yamaha) which clarinets have the best intonation instrument to instrument? This is before any technician has tweaked with the clarinet to help the intonation-just straight out of the factory.
I've had pretty good intonation experiences with Yamahas. What are your all's thoughts?
Post Edited (2005-06-23 23:02)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-06-24 00:58
I've played Buffet and Leblanc, and generally Leblanc are much better, but it's not like all your problems will suddenly go away just by playing Leblanc. There's also the risk of buying a dud, which can happen on any brand (depending on how well they test them at the factory) but I'm yet to come across a Leblanc that is as bad as some Buffets can be.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-24 04:55
Also, would one clarinet brand be more in tune for some people but not for different people? For instance, I can not get a new Buffet in tune but if someone tried the same Buffets could they get them in tune w/o tweaking? Like they were just naturally able to play an instrument in tune? I don't know if this makes sense....sorry if it doesn't.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-24 05:20
Clarinetgirl106 wrote:
> Also, would one clarinet brand be more in tune
> for some people but not for different people?
As we've said MANY times before:
Clarinets don't play in tune. Great musicians who play the clarinet play in tune.
Anyone who thinks there is any such thing as "set it and forget it" in terms of clarinet equipment and playing in tune has no idea what it means to play in tune.
No one person, or instrument "plays in tune" just like that. Anyone who is in tune all the time is working hard at it every second he or she is playing.
If you aren't concentrating on intonation DURING EVERY NOTE YOU PLAY, I'll bet big money you play out of tune a lot of the time. Probably way way out of tune...GBK
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-24 05:28
Right, I know that. I just meant if person A and person B both played clarinet X, would it be more in tune with person A than person B (vice versa)? Would it be because of the way our mouths, etc. are set up? Also, neither of them would be adjusting and they'd maybe have the same set-up and be using the same exact reed... just putting the mp in and blowing air through it. This is just curiosity. I know that we need to be adjusting to intonation 100% of the time. Good intonation is at the top of my list all the time. Just curiosity, that's all! : )
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-24 05:59
Thanks Bradley. Looks like you're doing your part to stay in tune! Keep up the great work!
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Author: Aures22
Date: 2005-06-24 06:22
To me, Mr. GBK is sounding like an elementary school band director, who tells the students you need to listen and learn what it sounds like to play in tune and make necessary adjustments via technique or corrections to the instrument. And it sounds cliche and corny and doesn't help much to the poster. I believe the original poster was asking to the effect, which clarinet of the 'Big 4' has the best overall 'set' tuning characteristics, given the player knows the technique of the instrument pretty well.
People who are experts in clarinets know that in general certain brand and a particular model of instrument has unique and particular tuning characteristics that deviate somewhat from the equal tempered scale. In my experience-before any adjustments or tweaks-the Selmer Signature Bb and A clarinets would have the best tuning in terms of accurate 12th, which means 12th are not sharp as in most clarinets, and little to no flattening near the bottom and the top of the instrument in the 1st register, which in my experience the Buffets and the Yamahas are problematic in.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-06-24 07:24
In my experience, most new instruments need to be adjusted and worked on before one can expect them to be as good as they can be. The factories cannot spend much time on fine tuning and fixing each clarinet if they are to sell them at competitive prices. On my new R13, I found that a lot of work was needed but that it was quite a fine instrument after the work was done. In a lot of cases, the new instrument is better after it is repadded with better pads. Many new instruments come with chips in the tone holes and misaligned pads, with the resulting leaks. I don't know how one can make comparisons until the instruments are properly adjusted and repaired.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-24 08:44
Aures22 wrote:
> In my experience-before any adjustments or tweaks
> the Selmer Signature Bb and A clarinets would have
> the best tuning in terms of accurate 12th, which
> means 12th are not sharp as in most clarinets, and
> little to no flattening near the bottom and the top of the
> instrument in the 1st register, which in my experience
> the Buffets and the Yamahas are problematic in.
It should be apparent to anyone who has heard a lot of clarinet playing that it is perfectly possible to play fantastically well on a Buffet R13 clarinet.
I have heard terrific in tune playing on Buffet, Yamaha, Leblanc and Selmer clarinets. I have also heard horribly OUT OF TUNE playing on all of them.
Since no clarinets play in tune and some clarinets play less out of tune than others, the key element to ask yourself is if YOUR clarinet has the FLEXIBILITY to let you adjust each and every time you have to.
Assuming, of course, you can hear what being in tune really is all about ...GBK
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Author: chedmanus
Date: 2005-06-24 09:26
What about the other brands? Eaton, Rossi, Orsi, Wurlitzer, Chadash, Patricola, Howarth, etc.
In my experience the Eatons and Rossis have better pitch than any of the big 4.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-24 10:47
I think it depends on your personal tendencies as to what's going to be easiest for you to play in tune. I have several Buffet R-13's that I use on a regular basis. The Greenline has mediocre intonation, which I think is partially due to a good number of leaks it has. My R-13 A clarinet has an amazingly accurate scale after having been just overhauled, but my wood Bb is still being overhauled right now. I look forward to seeing if it plays better after having been restored to good playing condition. The few Leblanc's I have played had excellent pitch, although it's been a few years, and I haven't had the opportunity to spend much time with the Selmer's. At the last Music Messe over here in Frankfurt, Germany, I had the opportunity to try out most of Yamaha's professional models, and also, for the first time, Patricola's. The Yamaha's had very accurate intonation tendencies, and the Patricola's were fairly good as well. The Patricola's needed a little bit of fine tuning to be right (for me, everyone's different), and I was concerned about how the bore looked. The grain in the bore was a bit inconsistent, and raised in some instances, which is a quality control concern. Also, while I was at that convention, I tried everything Buffet had to offer(tosca, vintage, prestige, R-13, RC, etc.), and was horrified by the inconsistency of the instruments. I only played on one that I was fairly satisfied will, which was a RC model.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-06-24 10:51
Comparing my Eaton with my Buffet, the Eaton is easier to play in tune most of the notes, but some notes are more in tune on the Buffet like the altisimo, and the throat notes are slightly easier to tune on the Buffet as well (although both the Buffet and Eaton has sharp thraot notes). I think my Eaton could really use a reapirman's check...
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-06-24 10:56
Disregard the FREE advice from working professionals that post on this BBS at your peril... they are the ones actively working with the instrument and repetoire that we all love.
GBK does us a service by offering constructive criticism of general advice.
(It's not that old people know everything, they've just been around long enough to have seen so much that did and did not work.)
*****
That being said, I like the idea of an instrument that doesn't fight you much to produce a nice tone, with relatively even tuning.
The modern designs are a compromise to produce an overall sound that is both pleasant, and on pitch.
It is VERY difficult to make a clarinet do both, well, without lots of extra toneholes and the mechanism to match.
For my money, the Ridenour TR147 and Couesnon Monopole are gems.
Best scale I ever played was on a 1950's R13 with three repaired cracks.
I couldn't enjoy the dark, covered sound it made - not involving to my ear.
Best overall sound (balance, projection, response) I managed was from a Yamaha YCL-SEv clarinet in A. But the tuning was problematic.
Most even response between registers, with good scale is from my LeBlanc Opus - but it cost more than my first car!
The Ridenour TR147 is the horn I play - even with it's shortcomings it tunes well, makes a pleasant sound with my favorite mouthpiece and is durable.
I think the Selmer Series 9 has an amazing sound, but I can't keep one in tune - the instrument was designed for power and grace, but it takes a sure player to keep the wilder aspects in line.
*****
Focusing on the instrument as the main generator of your sound may be a misapplication of your resources.
If your reeds are of poor quality - nothing else will matter.
If your mouthpiece doesn't suit you - you will always struggle with some part of your playing.
If you don't practice - your money is wasted anyway.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-24 17:25
Well, I did assume that the Eatons, Rossi's, Chadash's, Wurlitzer's, etc. would have way better tuning than the Big 4 because they have more time put into each instrument. I actually asked about the Big 4 because they are more common and sometimes more affordable. I would get an Eaton in a heartbeat, but I just can't afford one! Thanks for the input!
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-06-24 19:58
I play on either of two relatively old Buffet/Evette Shaeffers. For a time recently I was forced by circumstances to use my daughter's student model Selmer. I had to work much harder to play in tune, all over the range of the instrument. Obviously it was not the top of the line, but I was really amazed. .She's not using that instrument anymore.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-06-24 23:52
I understand the need for compromise (grad school course in acoustics) in the design of a clarinet to get it to have a wonderful tone and to come close to playing the right note when properly blown and fingered.
BUT,
I'm getting less patient with my '61 Buffet R16-1/2 (R13 + FullBoehm keying). I'm having to apply far too much of my concentration on getting the tones to come out the way I want them to; and that effort is pulling my attention from where I want it --on making the sounds I really, really want to make.
I'm making the best tone of my playing "career," but just not getting the responsiveness and (head start on) intonation that I NEED to do what I want to do.
If I lived close to a large Bb clarinet inventory, I'd be over there right now auditioning instruments.
I'm terrified of ordering a new instrument and finding it has its own, nasty, challenging personality. I want a horn that plays for me, not one that distracts me from playing music.
Do we all pray that the compliant and beautiful clarinet will somehow find its way to us? It seems as though that is the case.
SIGH
Bob Phillips
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2005-06-25 00:53
http://www.clarissono.de
This is a most interesting site demonstrating the tuning tendencies of some instruments. While it is an interesting read, most of the clarinets were German models. There also was not a large sample of each brand, limiting the study.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-06-25 04:00
"I would get an Eaton in a heartbeat, but I just can't afford one!"
Big mistake. I actually prefer my Buffet for certain things. Some people that have tried both my Eaton and Buffet preferred the Buffet. I prefer the sound of the Eaton, but because of the altisimo and throat notes, I'd actually choose the Buffet for a small ensemble where really every note is important to play in tune. Although most notes are very much in tune on the Eaton, the notes that aren't are very out of tune and takes a lot of work.
After I take the Eaton to the repairman I'll see, I should have done that a few months ago...
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Author: chedmanus
Date: 2005-06-25 10:04
Clarnibass, you must have gotten a bad Eaton! In my experience the Eatons are uniformly better in tune than the Buffet, hands down, and Ive tried a large number of Eatons small and large bore instruments.
True, it is a very individual choice, and for me it was quite simple, the Eatons are much better overall and I am never going back to Buffet.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-06-25 12:27
I don't think it's that I got a bad Eaton, I think it could use a repair. I think something happened to this clarinet during transit from England to the WW&BW. When I chose it I didn't notice a minor problem, that later turned out to be a bent key that made it impossible to play Bb. Peter Eaton said it is not possible that they shipped it that way and it must have happened in transit or while the WW&BW had it.
There are a few more problems that got nothing to do with intonation but I think a good repairman could help intonation too. Maybe my comparison was too soon and I should compare them after the repair.
I might even fly to England for the repair on the way (well it's not exactly on the way) to the world bass clarinet convention in Rotterdam 
Also, maybe the avarage Eaton is more in tune than the avarage Buffet, but my Buffet has very good intonation.
Post Edited (2005-06-27 10:39)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-25 14:54
Is it not possible....
Player A has played clarinet X for a very long time, and adapting to its idiosyncrasies has become rather automatic. The player no longer realises he is doing it.
Then Player A tests clarinet Y, using the same automatic adjustments that he used for clarinet X. Even if clarinet Y were inherently beautifully in tune, player A will declare clarinet Y to be out of tune.
Likewise player B, who has played clarinet Y for many years, and then tests clarinet X.
Considering that it is widely acknowledged that Buffet needs a fair bit of adjustment by the player, the majority of players, i.e. Buffet players (at least in some countries), may find other brands out of tune, whether they be out of tune or not.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-06-26 01:52
Gordan.....Truely an inspiring example. On the other hand I wonder how long it would take players A or B to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the other instrument and play IT in tune. It would be interesting to see if player or the instrument is more important to play in tune or maybe the best combination of the two. I play a Buffet and the intonation seems to be getting better all the time....... I wonder............
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-26 05:16
Yeah, I see where you are coming from Gordon. What if player A and player B were both testing out an unknown clarinet that was neither of theirs? Would one person be more in tune than the other person? They also wouldn't be able to see the tuner-someone else would be watching it for them....
Tyler tried my Yamaha Allegro and he uses a Buffet R13. I had tuned my clarinet and had adjusted my clarinet on the pitches open G, top of the staff G, and tuning B all perfectly in tune with the tuner. Then I had him play it and he was sharp everywhere. Are some of us more prone to playing sharp than others? Was he trying to play my Allegro like his R13? Is it simply our embouchures, physical structures?
Sorry, these are all weird curiosities...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-06-26 11:37
What Gordon describes fits very well with my own experience of playing many different instruments, including old clarinets and copies of them. You get better at unconscious compensation. And because each instrument feels physically different, that physical feeling can get to be an anchor for the different set of compensations, so you switch easily to the 'program', or the 'language' appropriate to the instrument you've just picked up.
Now obviously that happens when you play a bass clarinet -- but most people don't switch around their ordinary clarinets so much, so they don't notice how much work they're doing in playing their current one, or how much they must have learnt to play it in tune, and expressively.
Tom Ridenour used to say on the Klarinet list that the Leblanc required less compensation from the player than the Buffet, and cited cases of Buffet players finding it difficult to return to their own instruments after playing Leblancs for a couple of weeks. They missed the fact of being 'free to concentrate on the music', you see, that they'd had on the Leblanc:-)
But you would expect this difficulty anyway, however the instruments are set up.
The truth is, each to his own. Some players prefer one sort of problem, some another. It's an unfortunate fact that it's hard to set up a clarinet very well in tune without diminishing its resonance as an instrument, due to the compromise position of the register hole, and some people want to say that they find the Leblanc (for example) a bit characterless.
But perhaps it's not so unfortunate. Some other fine players are happy to use the Leblanc; and in a way, the idiosyncrasies of our individual instruments contribute an important part of the character of our own music-making. We may find ourselves more stimulated to 'complete the character' of one sort of instrument than to complete that of another.
This sort of consideration is the only reason we'd bother to play on period clarinets, that's for sure.
Tony
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-06-27 04:37
Gordon's description certainly fits an experience I had. About a year after I started taking clarinet lessons, my parents bought me a wood clarinet. At the time money was a little tight and, to them (and me) a wood clarinet was a wood clarinet. So, instead of a Buffet or the Leblanc our local music store recommended, they bought me a Malerne (I think through the Sears catalog). I played that clarinet for about 10 years before I bought my Buffet. During that time, I played it in high school, college and a couple of lounge bands. I never had any problems with intonation. Eventually, with some money burning a hole in my pocket, I bought an R13, which I have played ever since (about 40 years so I think I got my money's worth).
Several years ago, my daughter started clarinet lessons. Her first clarinet was my old Malerne. While she could play it perfectly in tune throughout her range (around E3 - D6), when I would play it, there were a number of notes that were seriously out of tune. Around that time, I heard James Galway say, at a master class for the local flute society, that he adjusted his embouchure, if only slightly, for every note he played. It occurred to me that, in my early years on the Malerne, I learned to voice it and made adjustments automatically to play in tune (sort of ear-mouth coordination ). When I went back to play it after 40 years of playing my R13, the different set of adjustments I had learned on my R13 didn't work at all for the Malerne. I have no doubt, however, that if I wanted to take the time, I could learn to play the Malerne in tune again.
This leads me to a couple of observations related to comments I've read on this board over the years: (1) I see complaints from clarinetists about new clarinets that don't play in tune at all. Perhaps some of the fault lies with the instrument but I wonder if, often, the problem is simply the unconscious adjustments the player has learned to make on his/her previous clarinet simply don't work with the new instruments -- particularly when the player has been playing on a student instrument or a different make or model than the one s/he is trying. If so, one person's reject might well turn out to be another's gem. (2) When trying clarinets, it seems to me that many players are looking for one that plays almost perfectly in tune out-of-the-box. Good intonation, good intonation and good intonation, are the first three criteria in many recommendations to potential buyers. Maybe they shouldn't be. Perhaps intonation doesn't have to be perfect out-of-the-box because the player will learn to fine tune the instrument's intonation with practice. (Of course, there are limits to the amount of adjustment a player can make so an instrument can't be too far out to begin with.) (3) One should be careful when hiring a professional to select one's clarinet. What fits the professional's learned playing technique might not be optimal for the buyer whose learned technique may be quite different. The good news is that the professional is likely to select an instrument without any major defects and the player can eventually learn to voice it. But perhaps professionals need to take great care to understand how their client plays. I suspect that some make more effort in this area than others. I also suspect that such services are overrated (and overpriced). YMMV.
Just my $.02.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-27 18:38
Jack-you make an interesting point. Could that be the reason why me and my friend who both use Yamahas have a hard time getting Buffets in tune? We both play very sharp on tuning C/B and we play very flat on open G. We just couldn't get the thing in tune and we've tried gobs of them.
My other friend who uses a Buffet R13 is very sharp on my clarinet, while I have the flat/sharp thing on his.
Thanks for your insight!
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-06-27 22:18
News flash - it's all about adjustment, not necessarily the brand - SHOCK HORROR. Move on, get over it and just play.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-06-27 22:41
Remember also that MOST clarinet intonation problems can be improved or even eliminated by a good technician, using a combination of techniques such as adjusting pad opening heights, modifying toneholes, undercutting/radiussing toneholes, etc. If a clarinet has a fundamentally good sound and relatively stable response, it can generally be adjusted to play pretty well in tune by a good tech, even if it doesn't play well in tune straight from the factory.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-27 23:32
<<...Move on, get over it and just play....>>
With that philosophy, there would be nothing to write in this forum at all! :-)
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-27 23:52
"News flash - it's all about adjustment, not necessarily the brand - SHOCK HORROR. Move on, get over it and just play."
Diz-it IS all about adjustment! You're right! It's just I'd like to be able to adjust less, ya know? Make it a little easier for myself. I know that I'll have to adjust some anyways, but why not make it easier for myself? That's not a sin, is it? Curiosity hasn't killed me yet and so I'll continue to be curious!
Yeah David, a good technician should be able to work out most/if not all intonation problems. Thanks for the help!
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-06-28 01:45
Thus bringing to the fore the necessity for a good tech. If you send your horn off and say, "It doesn't play in tune", your tech will play your horn and make the adjustments he/she makes when playing. An interesting problem.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-06-28 01:50
Yeah, that's why woodwind.org has a tuning sheet where you record the intonation of the clarinet and then you pack it along with the clarinet to give to your technician. It seems like a handy sheet!
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Misc/TuningCharts.html
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-06-28 02:44
Quote:
Thus bringing to the fore the necessity for a good tech. If you send your horn off and say, "It doesn't play in tune", your tech will play your horn and make the adjustments he/she makes when playing. An interesting problem.
Sue,
That is a very interesting insight! I find another adjustment problem - ring height of the lower joint - to be a huge problem for me with many techs. Specifically, I had one tech in Boston who was this big Russian guy and after his overhaul of my horns, the rings were too high and stiff for me, but played like "buttah" for him. Lucky for me he was local and able to make the neccessary adjustments.
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-07-05 22:02
Dear Clarinetgirl; I would play the long pipe note B. Is it sharp enough? I play flat on the standard clarinet because I use a soft reed. I found that the Selmer Signature needed only one mm cut from its shortest barrel, 62.5mm. They are higher pitched than other brands because they are designed to be used with softer reeds as their literature says. Then you are ready to check the twelves, etc. It is better to be a little sharp of course to adjust to people. Sincerely, I am trying to be socially adequate, OK? Ken
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Author: selmer_fan
Date: 2005-07-06 07:44
Jack Kissinger said:
"At the time money was a little tight and, to them (and me) a wood clarinet was a wood clarinet. So, instead of a Buffet or the Leblanc our local music store recommended, they bought me a Malerne (I think through the Sears catalog). I played that clarinet for about 10 years before I bought my Buffet. During that time, I played it in high school, college and a couple of lounge bands. I never had any problems with intonation."
This is really interesting to me because I've had similar experiences. I played all through school, various youth orchestras and the local British Legion band here on a wooden Artley for the same parental/financial reasons and had zero trouble with intonation on it. I guess I learned to compensate for the instrument. Same with tone - I managed to play this Artley with a really nice, rich tone.
Now I'm playing on a Selmer, my intonation is all over the place. It's taking me time to learn to compensate in the same manner.
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-07-07 21:21
Dear Selmer Fan; When I bought my new Selmer Signature the mpc was the C85 1.05mm, pretty closed but with a "short" facing or a severe curve on it. The reed was a Roy Meier #2, pretty soft. But it played wonderfully. And the high notes were easy and could be played soft or loud, soft like his Buffet R13. I play more flat than most. It was only very slighly flat with the short barrel. We don't want to shorten it too much to cause intonation problems. The register vent was too small to get a big throat Bb. Opening that hole helps make the 12s bigger at both ends which is good since the clarion register suffers the most to go flat with a soft reed if you do that to your setup. You must talk about your mpc (for large or small bore instrument) and reed. I have been on a large bore clarinet for two years with a custom reamed 5JB Vandoren (it is made for small bores). On To the Definitive Clarinet! Ken
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