 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Scott D
Date: 2005-06-17 21:16
Hi
I have an older Buffet clarinet and need help identifying its model. I can't find anything that describes the difference between an E-11 and R-13 and I'm fairly certain it's one of the two. It's made of wood, I assume grenadilla, and has the serial number 126371.
Running the number at buffet's website yields an R-13 dated 1972 or an E-11 dated 1974. The date range seems correct to me, given the wear on the keys and the fading of the serial number and logo stamps. The reference here (http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html) seems to indicate that a 5-digit serial is the E model while a 6-digit is the R model. Is this correct?
Is there anything on the clarinet to indicate its model?
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-06-17 21:38
I believe that the R13 is the only Buffet clarinet that does not have its model number stamped onto the top joint. For example, a E11 should have "E11" stamped.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-17 21:48
E11 should also have "Germany" and other words engraved on it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Scott D
Date: 2005-06-17 21:53
The only stamps are the Buffet logo and serial number -- must be an R-13!
Thanks for your help and quick responses!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-06-17 21:55
If a Buffet has no model marking, it is an R-13. Thus, your instrument 126371 is an R-13, from early 1972.
As you can see from the serial number list, in 1928, Buffet switched from letters and numbers to numbers-only, beginning at 1. I have several instruments with 4-digit serial numbers, so the number of digits is not determinative.
From 1928 through 1954, the instrument had no particular designation (although there were various catalog numbers in the form "R" followed by a number, with the number representing the presence of various extra keys). Around the beginning of 1955, in the high 47XXX serial number range, Buffet switched to the R-13. The highest pre-R-13 serial number I know of is 48707 (1954), and the lowest R-13 I know of is 48830.
Clark Fobes's article at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Intonation.html notes that by that time, the design had been changed from the original R-13. For example, the outside diameter of the wood had been slightly enlarged. My main instruments were made in 1971 and 1973, with serial numbers not far from yours.
Enjoy your R-13.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-17 22:51
*****Running the number at buffet's website yields an R-13 dated 1972 or an E-11 dated 1974.*****
Buffet did not make clarinets marked "E11" in 1974
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-06-17 23:13
I normally would have agreed that the lack of a model number makes it an R13, but I recently ran across a Buffet with no model designation that was made in Germany. It obviously was not an R13.
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-06-18 00:18
Vytas is correct. Buffet made all clarinets in Paris during the early 70's. During this time period no clarinet, professional or student was stamped with a model number. Measuring the Clarinets bore is the most reliable method to determine the clarinets classification keep in mind today Buffet recycles serial numbers.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-18 00:19
Until around 1980 only professional Buffet clarinets had the Buffet logo.
Markings on all section should read:
"Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France".
From around 1980 the Buffet logo appears on all models, but the marking "Made in France" below BC is missing on student level clarinets made in Germany.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-06-18 00:59
Isn't the the wooden Evette which was made in Germany the same horn that became the E11? On the Buffet serial number search, it would be listed under E11; and the number 126371 does come up with a date of 1974. So Buffet didn't make ALL clarinets in Paris during the early 70's. Correct me if I'm wrong. Of course these were not marked with the Buffet trademark, but "Evette" with Buffet-Crampon below that.
Post Edited (2005-06-18 06:38)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-06-18 03:35
If my memory serves, Buffet made Evettes in France until around 1978, when they shifted production to the Schreiber plant in Germany. From then until around 1980-81, the instruments they manufactured were designated as Evettes, made in Germany. Both the French and German Evettes were stamped with the Evette logo. Around 1981, the German Evettes "evolved" into the E11, though there may not have been any change in design at that point. I agree with Vytas that, in 1974, there was no "E11." (I'm pretty sure that Carl Fischer's catalog designation for the French Evette was actually E10 at that point, though it was only a catalog number and was not stamped on the instrument.) AFAIK, "E11" was not used until around 1981.
Somewhere in the Klarinet archives, I think there is a post from a former Buffet dealer to the effect that there was a short period around 1980-81 when Buffet did not stamp any designation on its Evettes (neither "Evette" nor "E11"). I've never seen that confirmed anywhere else. Aside from being marked "Made in Germany," such instruments (if they existed) would have been distinguishable from R13's by their keywork.
Since the serial number site has returned, I note that some of the series have apparently been extended to earlier periods of time but I think there may be errors in the new additions. For example, an Evette & Schaeffer K3xxx was dated as having been made in 1930 (previously the K serial number list only went back to around K4750 which dated to the 1950's). The problem with the K3xxx instrument was that it's keywork appeared to be far more recent than 1930, e.g., it had an adjusting screw on the G# throat key. French wooden Evettes had a D prefix to their serial number.
Scott, it sounds like you have an R13 to me. An additional clue might be (if you have the original case) that the case is a black pochette with blue lining.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2005-06-19 16:24)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-18 04:22
Llewsrac wrote:
***** Buffet made all clarinets in Paris during the early 70's. During this time period no clarinet, professional or student was stamped with a model number.*****
By the early 70s Buffet had several professional level clarinets including some stamped with a model number: BC-20, S-1, Academy Model, Continentale, Super-Dynaction etc.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-18 05:09
Vytas...
The R13 clarinet has a wood cut out beneath the right hand pinky keys crows foot because of the travel of the keys, which are set lower.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that all the Evette clarinets do not have a wood cut out below the right pinky cluster of keys, like the R13 does. I am also fairly certain that the C12 model did not have a wood cut out below the right hand pinky keys.
Just curious if you knew whether the BC-20, S-1, Academy Model, Continentale, or Super-Dynaction have wood cut out below the right hand pinky keys? ...GBK
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-06-18 05:42
double post, sorry
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2005-06-18 06:20)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-06-18 05:45
Attachment: R13-E11.jpg (38k)
2 of the posts on the lower joint, left side, are offset on r13s and the same length on e11's The left side F/C ends 1/4" higher than the post holding the right side F/C & G#/Eb keys on R13's ; on E11's these posts are side by side. E.G. the left side F/C lever is shorter on a R13. Dunno about the older evettes.
In the attached photo the top one is an E11 (2002) , the bottom an R13 (1977 model).
I have a student here tomorrow with an S-1, will try and remember to look at the crows foot for the cutout. S-1' were prominently stamped with a S-1 logo on the top joint.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-06-18 12:48
GBK....I own a 1968 Buffet Super Dynaction and it does have the wood cutout below the rt hand pinky keys. It plays as well as any R13 that I have tryed with a 5RV Lyre 13 mp and a Chardash barrel. Slightly sharp with a #3 reed and in tune with a #2 reed. I am quite pleased with it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-18 14:08
btw - the size of the Register Key screw changed around the 300,000 mark for the Buffet Clarinet.
When Abe Galper would take an order for his Register Key he would have to ask the serial # of the instrument so that he could send the correct size screw - they are 2 quite different sizes.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-06-18 15:18
i just checked my student's S-1 - i think its about a 1973 or 74 model - it DOES have the cutout. The keywork looks almost exactly the same as my 1977 R13.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-06-18 15:57
This link offers information on all Buffet models. What horns evolved into current day models.
I have found when using the Buffet seral number search if two dates appear for the same serial number the newer date is the correct date and instrument.
I had a Buffet sometime ago that returned two dates, 1981 and 1983. The Horn looked like an R13, stamped made in france ect., but it was actually an non-stamped E11 student model. Identical to the R13 except the lower joint was not stamped with the Buffet logo under the low E rod. The E11 stamp started appearling between 84-85 and so changed the made in France to made in W.Germany.
http://www.abimusic.com/buffet_clarinets.htm
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-06-18 19:59
My 1974 Super Dynaction also has cut-outs under the RH cluster. I'm still amazed that the SD's were made over a span which at least included Avie's 1968 model and my 1974 model. I could understand a model which spanned 1-2 years and was discontinued, but the SD is pretty rare considering that it was made over at least a 6 year time span. Made to order? I'm not sure. I wish someone could get the story out of France. Mr. Kloc did not seem to be familiar with it until he researched it a bit, and then was still very sketchy with his explanation. Any dealers out there remember the SD?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-18 21:36
GBK,
All professional Buffet clarinets made before 1980 have a wood cut out beneath the right hand pinky keys crows' foot. You're correct, some C12 do not have cutouts. When Buffet first introduced C12 it was a professional instrument but later it was equipped with an E13 keywork and downgraded to the high-end student model. These instruments do not have cutouts.
There has been a lot of controversy about E&S MM. Some people believe they were rejected R-13s.
Not all E&S Master Models are rejected R-13, but the ones that have a wood cut out beneath the right hand pinky keys crows' foot - definitely ARE rejected R-13.
When B&H took over in 1980s for some time there was real mess with the serial numbers, confusion with logos and models. Believe it or not, during transitional period some R13 had no cutouts and came with an E13 keywork. I've personally seen three instruments like this.
Llewsrac,
Even with all this mess during the 1980s, there was no unstamped E11 identical to the R-13 with the marking "Made in France" just below the logo.
Since 1960 all student level clarinets had different keywork than the R-13.
During transitional B&H period some Evette clarinets (just the wood) were made in France and then sent to Germany where these instruments received German made keys and have been stamped with German type "EVETTE" logo. Ears on the bridge key are reversed and appear on the bottom and not on the top like on the R-13. The marking "Made in France" was stamped on the other side and never appeared below the logo.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2009-02-17 15:20)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-18 21:44
Vytas... Thanks for the information. That certainly helps to clear up the differences and similarities of the models.
Much appreciated...GBK
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2005-06-18 22:06
This is what I have, that I bought in 1969 or 1970. The case inside is blue and has a banner across one side (inside) that says Buffet-Crampon, The Sweetest Clarinet Ever Made. The banner is silver with blue writing on it. Somebody mentioned pouchette. Is that the little area where you can store reeds, etc? My clarinet still looks brand new after all these years. I had to have the handle fixed, my husby did a great job with duct tape, but I carry the clarinet case in another cloth case with lots of pockets.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-06-18 22:17
Is the construction of the right hand sliver key (alternate clarion F# key) a conclusive determinate or were some of the other models mentioned above made with the "swoopy" arm connection to the pad?
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Author: Scott D
Date: 2005-06-19 05:52
Attachment: case.jpg (43k)
Attachment: case_inside.jpg (46k)
Attachment: lowerjoint.jpg (64k)
This is fascinating reading. Thank you all so much for sharing your experience and wisdom about these beautiful instruments.
Some more info about my clarinet:
All pieces, including the lower joint, have the same stamp: "Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France"
There is a cutout in the wood underneath the crow's feet.
The two posts on the lower joint are offset and are identical to the 2nd picture that pewd posted.
Its case is old and worn but I can't say whether it is the original case. The outside is wrapped in light brown leather and with a gold color Buffet logo affixed to it. The inside lining is gold.
Attached are pictures of the case and lower joint.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-06-19 15:26
looks like you have a 1972 model r13
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-06-19 16:24
Scott,
The lower joint looks like an R13 to me. The case is a Buffet attache style case, probably for a professional model and probably from the 1970's. In the links below, I have included one to a 1970's style double attache case for professional Buffet clarinets. Note that it has the same general shape as yours.
Carol,
"Pochette" refers to the overall case design. The Buffet pochette is/was a streamlined case with a bell flare at one end. I think it was the standard case in the 50's, 60's and perhaps at least part of the 70's for the R13. That case, so common in the past, was black with blue lining. It sounds like what you have. I have had to replace the handles on a couple of these cases. You can get a good replacement for about $11.60 from Ferree's tools -- item T56 in their catalog.
I went looking on eBay for pictures but, to my surprise, I could not find any of the "traditional" pochette in completed auctions. (Guess I'm getting old -- the cases were all more recent.) There is an example in the current auctions, which you can find by searching eBay on "R13 clarinet" without the quotes and then looking through the list.
You can get an idea of the style from this much older version (note the old rope handles):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47097&item=7329320032&rd=1
The alternative was/is an attache style case -- somewhat larger and more boxy in appearance. I think the attache case is now standard (and has been for apparently some time) for the R13, though pouchettes are still available.
Fairly recent attache-style case:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=85869&item=7329695419&rd=1
Modern double attache-style case:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47097&item=7329304386&rd=1
Double attache case from the 70's:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10182&item=7326330553&rd=1
Attache-style case, style used in the 50's and 60's:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=85869&item=7328409897&rd=1
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2005-06-19 16:36)
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-06-20 17:54
Fred... Thanks for your post and trying again. There must be documents somewhere depicting the history and specifications of the Buffet Super Dynaction clarinets that were mfgrd from 1968 to 1974. It is frustrating to own a clarinet for 5 plus years without a history to refer to. If we continue our quest sooner or later a dealer, tech, teacher or guru will locate the history and release info of the Buffet SD model clarinet on this BB or otherwise. I was to be contacted by Mr. Kloc on this subject over a year ago. I am dissapointed but still hopeful that he will come through with something of interest for us.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-06-20 18:47
I don't think the case is conclusive. On the other hand, I believe the swoopy F# sliver key is pretty good evidence of a professional level clarinet. My opinion from the picture of the lower joint, though it is from the left side, is that this clarinet has the swoopy key.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-20 19:40
jim S. wrote:
***** I believe the swoopy F# sliver key is pretty good evidence of a professional level clarinet. My opinion from the picture of the lower joint, though it is from the left side, is that this clarinet has the swoopy key. *****
Not necessarily. I would say there are about 1% of professional Buffet clarinets that have Leblanc type sliver key on the Lower Joint. I've already mentioned that SOME R-13 (1980-1984) came with an E13 keywork (Leblanc type sliver key on the LJ, the crows-foot made from the single piece of alloy and no cutouts).
Check eBay item 7328633355 . This is, without a doubt, a pro instrument from 1961. Note the crows-foot still belongs to the R-13 keywork, but the sliver key is Leblanc type. Both type sliver keys are not interchangeable, so they were installed in the factory.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-06-21 03:04
Vytas: Is your knowledge of 1980 to 1984 R13's with E13 keywork based on instruments whose bore and fraising you have checked?
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-06-21 16:30
Absolutely! There's no doubt these instruments were R-13s.
BTW, E13 serial numbers do not fall into pro clarinet category.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-06-23 14:12
The serial number site specified lists Buffets, E13's, harmony clarinets and Oboe serial no's and age. Are the R13's and E11's mixed in with the Buffet list? How would we determine which is which? Is there a separate listing for R13's and E11's I am not aware of? Thanks.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-06-23 19:41
Jack......Thanks. Actually neither site proves that Scott has an R13 or an E11 or otherwise. Judging by the description and BB posts I am guessing that he has an R13. More important is how it plays but a more accuate history for all clarinets in the future would be nice to have.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-06-24 17:12
I would like to operate on the working presumption that any Buffet with the swoopy F# sliver key is a professional level clarinet (R13 or other) until a proven exception is found. Is that safe...Vytas?...
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Author: Aschwa6834
Date: 2012-08-26 11:08
I have just found a buffet crampon clarinette with the series number 57984. Can anyone tell me what else i should know about this item and what it is approx worth?
Thanks
Adam
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-08-26 11:16
E11 serial numbers won't be listed along with R13 serial numbers as E11s aren't made by Buffet - they're made by Schreiber. The E11 was first introduced in the mid '80s and was the wooden Evette before that - wood with nickel plated keys which is basically a wooden version of a B12/B&H Regent II/plastic Evette.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-08-26 12:32
Adam -
Buffet S/N 57984 is an R13 made in 1957. It is the original R13 design, on which the register vent was relatively low and large. This gave it a wonderful tone in the clarion, at the expense of intonation problems. The low clarion notes were flat, and the high ones were sharp.
Early R13s are advertised on eBay as being from the "Golden Age," but that doesn't mean much. They varied a lot from one instrument to the next, so you must play each one to find out whether the intonation is good enough and the response and tone suit you.
You will probably need a new barrel with the Moennig or Chadash reverse taper, which will improve the intonation. Also, if the bore at the top of the lower joint (above the register vent) is dull rather than shiny, it's been altered (probably in an attempt to improve the intonation). Alteration spoils the instrument, and you should pass on any rebored example.
The current Buffet Vintage model is a clone of the early R13. You might play one to get an idea of what to expect.
Ken Shaw
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Author: azuka
Date: 2014-05-07 09:31
Actually, this is not quite so simple.
However, it is not so hard to tell E-11's from R-13's.
E-11's are made in Germany and marked on the back of the clarinet. So when you see the famous Buffet Crampon a Paris logo if it does not say 'Made in France' below the logo, it was NOT made in France. The 'a Paris' confuses a lot of folks. It just means Buffet Crampon OF Paris, but is not relevant as to the country of manufacture.
E-11's will have the standard logo embossed on the bell, barrel and the upper section, but NOT the lower section. R-13's will always have the logo embossed on the front of the lower section near the lower joint.
All professional model Buffet clarinets DO say 'Made in France' below the logo, either very closely or with a bit of distance depending on the era.
These three issues should make it very easy to distinguish the intermediate models from the pro models.
AT one point in time, the intermediate models were made in France, but these were marked as Evette's or as Evette & Schaeffer models.
This should clarify things a great deal.
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Author: jhunter33
Date: 2014-07-07 07:54
I just bought a buffet crampon with the serial number 79447. Can anyone tell me what else i should know about this item and what it is approx worth? Thanks...
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Author: Sum Randumb D00d
Date: 2014-08-18 00:12
> "I just bought a buffet crampon... what it is approx worth?"
A thing is worth precisely what was paid for it at the very moment when the check finally cleared the bank.
What its worth might have been immediately prior to that moment, or what its worth might prove to be immediately after that moment, is a value which can be very nearly unknowable.
A fellow named Nassim Nicholas Taleb has written a very great deal about this sort of thing.
jus sayin
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Author: AmberNBG
Date: 2016-07-03 01:56
I am a "band mom" and have had to learn about trombones in the last 4 years. I am now learning about clarinets. I recently purchased a used Buffet clarinet from a local music store for my daughter to start beginning band with. The seller states it is an intermediate horn. There is a gold stamp on the bell that is partially rubbed off, not engraved and only the bell has this info. Based on an internet search I was able to find out it should say Buffet Crampon A Paris. It is stamped Made in Germany and the serial number is 651453 on upper section with keys. Not absolutely sure about the last number. It could be an 8 or 0. It is pressed/burned into the wood. I would like to find out more info if possible. I can't tell anything other than maybe the year based on the serial number charts I have been able to find. Help?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-07-03 02:10
If it's wooden, then it's an E11. If it's plastic but with a wood-like finish, it's a B12. If it's plastic and has black plastic socket rings and the top joint trill/side keys are all 'inline' (ie. the pad cups aren't off to one side) then its an B10.
There was also the E10 that had a wooden body but with a plastic barrel and bell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: AmberNBG
Date: 2016-07-03 03:16
Doesn't say West. Just "Made in Germany". Other than seller saying intermediate I don't know. We were looking at Yamaha 450 and he said they were about equivalent. Yamaha sold before we could get there.
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Author: AmberNBG
Date: 2016-07-03 04:30
Based on what I could find, 450 is intermediate, 650 was professional. My daughter is 11. I wanted her to have one that would last her through high school, but wouldn't be too difficult to start out with.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2016-07-03 06:03
My experience with the 650 and 450 is that the great bargain of the pair is the 450. There's not enough difference between them to justify the increased price. They're both great horns, but if I were looking to buy one right now I'd buy the 450.
Tony F.
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Author: ClarinetG8r
Date: 2020-08-28 03:28
Attachment: old clarinet 2.jpg (39k)
Attachment: old clarinet.jpg (46k)
Attachment: old clarinet serial number.jpg (24k)
Hello. I am hoping you can help me. I recently purchased a very old clarinet. Honestly, it was in such need of repair, I took it in, almost out of pity. I am somewhat sure it is a Buffet although the logo is almost worn off, and I think the serial number is 7206.. but is almost entirely worn off too. If it is a Buffet, that serial number shows from between 1930 and 1931. Can you help me identify the model using that serial number? I've enclosed pictures of what is left of the logo and serial number.
Thanks in advance!
Kris R
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Author: Dooner
Date: 2020-10-06 04:49
Roland,
I am now the owner of BUFFET CRAMPON R13 Serial# 79447,
Can you tell me its history.
Thanks!
Jeff
https://reverb.com/item/35722864-buffet-crampon-r13-bb-clarinet-refurbished-beautiful-condition-new-case-new-mouthpiece-extras
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