 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-06-17 23:23
Just a note to all BB members the great conductor Guilini has died. I worked with him in the late 80s in Europe and can only say he was the finest musician I ever worked under. His recordings are superb and a testify to his incredible musicianship. He was one of the clearest Conductors of any I have worked with.
Please check the wondeful work he did on Brahms with the following discs
Chicago Symphony Guilini Brahms 4 and other works on EMI
Also I love his more recent Vienna Phil recording of Brahms First Symphony which I played under him.....(not with the Vienna Phil of course!)
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-06-17 23:25)
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-06-17 23:49
If I were to be stranded on an island with only one CD, it would be Giulini's account of the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Rostropovich and the London Philharmonic. Slava's cello playing is fine as always, but the orchestra there is out of this world.
This world has just lost one hell of a musician.
Post Edited (2005-06-17 23:50)
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Author: its the Lencho
Date: 2005-06-19 01:16
Indeed, the world has lost one of the greatest conductors of Italian opera.
His sense for theatrical drama, combined with his keen sense of musicianship allowed him to stay on the high end of an otherwise difficult pile to stay on top of.
I still listen to his Don Giovanni with pleasure and a hint of pride.
Here's to one of the best I ever knew.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-06-19 17:47
Just a thought/observation/theory (whatever)......it isn't hard to be the *best*--or even good--if you always have the top musicians in the world at the end of your baton. I frequently fantasize conducting the Chicago Symphony Orchestra only having to say "go" at the beginning and "stop" at the end, and let the magificient musicians take care of the inbetween. I know there is much more to conducting than that, but I don't think I would ever have to say anything like, "Mr Combs, could you please try phrasing your part 'this way' next time around". The CSO--or any other major symphony--is entirely capable of sounding "great" no matter who is on the podium--Danny Kaye, Jerry Lewis or Solti.
I mean no disrespect to the great conductor, Guilini (or any other conductor), but a certain percentage of his success must be credited to his musicians.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-06-19 23:17
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra (or any other top class orchestra) will sound good no matter who is conducting. But they will only sound GREAT when a great musician is conducting them. The difference a great conductor makes to a good orchestra is mystifying and amazing.
Actually your theory probably applies more accuratly to the opposite end of the spectrum- a bad orchestra will sound bad, no matter who is conducting!
Giulini was one of my favourite conductors. May he rest in peace.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-06-20 00:01
David ... sad news, but he had a good long life, I guess. I own that Brahms' 4th - it is wonderful, to be sure.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-06-20 00:04
Somebody mentioned Danny Kaye in the same breath as Georg Solti.
I wish it were still possible to see Danny Kaye conducting your Symphony Orchestras.
My fondest memory of the NYP is still seeing and hearing them under his baton.
Tony
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-06-20 14:20
In response to one of the above posts...conductors like Karajan and Solti did not always start out with great orchestras. They became famous for making lesser orchestras surpass the "big orchestras" in quality by the excellence of their conducting skills. Guilini conducted ensembles of lesser stature than Berlin in Italy and became the great conductor he was through the greatness of his skill and precision as a director. He also was incredibly clear in what he wanted the music to sound like and became famous for his interpretations...not what "orchestra" he was conducting.
Hence, the Vienna Phil and Chicago symphony sound remarkably alike in tone in Guilini's ideas of these pieces.... My post is meant as respect for the wonder of his individual approach as interpreter of the classical music giants. Even the Chicago symphony can play poorly under a bad conductor....and the same holds true for Berlin, London PHil etc.
Karajan started out in Aachen with a lesser known opera company not
noted for quality in the 1930s...within a few years the music community
noted how quickly this company improved under his conducting.
Solti started out in Hungary and worked with second tier orchestras which sounded after his keen conducting "world class."
Guilini started out with lesser orchestras in Italy and with groups that sounded poor until he stepped on to the podium...Toscanini noticed how well he made an ensemble in Italy noted for it's lacklustre playing sound fantastic and soon befreinded the young Giulini. (in the 1940s)
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-06-20 14:26)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-20 15:59
I see the obit for Carlo Maria Giulini made the Chicago Sunday tribune today.
Bob Draznik
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-06-20 16:43
Some records I recommend to others in the Guilini discography
Brahms 1 EMI New Philharmonia lp
Brahms Symphony 1 Vienna Phil and Haydn Variations DG
Mozart Requim Philharmonia Orchestra EMI
Stravinsky Firebird Suite and Petroushka CSO EMI
Brahms 4 Chicago Symphony EMI cd
Verdi Requiem Philharmonia orchestra EMI
Schumann Rhenish Symphony Los Angeles Phil DG
Debussy La Mer Los Angeles Phil DG
Mahler 9 Chicago Symphony
Bruckner 9 Vienna Phil dg
and of course all of his opera records...
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-06-21 09:08
David ... wonderful list, thank you ... will head off on shopping spree soon. Did you ever work with Georg Tintner, he was also capable of working wonders, plus he was charming and very calm in his manner, I wonder if this style is similar to Guilini's?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-06-21 12:55
Yes I also worked with Georg Tintner who was very different in style from Guilini
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-06-21 15:54)
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Author: its the Lencho
Date: 2005-06-28 05:37
To a previous post, I feel compelled to respond.
Nothing substantial… Just a counter-thought/counter-observation/and counter-theory.
Now, it IS true that getting a group of superb musicians to play well isn’t always the hardest job in the world. But to get on top of that podium is not a goal easily achieved. In other words, to get in front of a group of good musicians, you have to be pretty darn good yourself.
But even then, on the other side of the podium, does the conductor really matter? A hot topic for many people, but I’m of the belief that a group without a conductor can play fine anyway.
Heck, the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra does it all the time.
But the quality of musicians as a GROUP is more often than not, variable. Furtwangler, in his Vermachtnis, claimed that: “There are orchestra leaders under whom the smallest village band plays as if it were the Vienna Philharmonic and there are those under whom even the Vienna Philharmonic sounds like a village band.” This was in reference to the legendary Arthur Nikisch. Obviously the conductor does have a large impact on the group he shapes, regardless of their skill level. Furtwangler himself actually managed to hinder the precision of any group he conducted. That’s saying quite a bit in the way of projecting a personality.
The point I’m trying to get at is that the reason why certain conductors are great is because their ability to inflict their will upon the music. With any large-scale group, the musicians can be left to run themselves smoothly, like a finely oiled machine. But a car still needs a driver, right? One mind is elected as the leader and he or she works with the orchestra to impose a single vision onto the music. That process itself takes a tremendous amount of energy, knowledge, experience, and a fair deal of inspiration on the conductor’s part.
And for the record: conductors DO say things like “Mr. Combs, could you please try phrasing your part 'this way' next time around?” What else happens at rehearsal?
The orchestra is there. And part of the credit goes to them. But that’s not to deprive the conductor of the quality of his vision. Should the conductor be anything less than exceptional, then the orchestra will never exceed him. The times when an orchestra plays like magic – that’s when you know that a great conductor has enabled them to play so.
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