 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-18 21:11
Having spent the morning playing the bassoon part (in bass clef) on my flute (only instrument in C I could get my hands on), because I can't sight transpose and read bass clef at the same time, I find myself wishing for a clarinet in C. Now, I know that there is a clarinet in C, but I know it is a high instrument, did anyone ever make a low clarinet in C? i.e. somewhere an octave or two lower than the existing one, or am I going to have to get really good at transposing from bass clef...horrors!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-18 21:44
What you need is a baritone saxophone [in Eb !!], preferably having a "low A", the more expensive kind. With it, you play the written note as it would be in the treble clef, but need to add 3 #'s to the key signature. When I need to play a bassoon part on my bass clarinet [Bb], I ask for a computer-transposed part, as what you have discovered, it is a dbl trans. clef and C to Bb. Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-06-19 00:02
Or, in the similar train of thought as Don, get a contra alto clarinet aka Eb contrabass clarinet. Do the same transposition trick and you are in business.
You were also wondering about a clarinet an octave below C clarinet, I guess this would make it a C bass clarinet. I believe this used to be available at one time, but not sure if it was ever in high production.
Anyone care to comment?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-06-19 02:29
The first preserved bass clarinet (the hollowed out serpentine one) was pitched in C. I've read that it was created to play bassoon parts in military bands (French Imperial Guard) in 1810 or thereabouts.
As anyone who has tried to play bassoon in a marching situation knows full well, this was a very good idea. (One of Sax's reasons for the creation of the saxophone family was to provide an effective bass for the reeds in military bands.) Are there any groups that still march with bassoon?
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-06-19 03:15
FWIW the famous Band "The Music Man" Broadway Musical with 76 Trombones has a lyric stating
....."each bassoon having its big fat say."
So at least on that great day when Souza et al came to town, there were marching bassoonists.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-06-19 14:12
Keep in mind that (based upon what's displayed in his published works like The Music Man and The Unsinkable Molly Brown) ol' Meredith's grip on the real world was...ahem..."a bit strained".
A couple of years ago, I had to play bassoon for a show on relatively short notice. The horn that I was using didn't have the provisions for a bottom end strap, and until I got a boot-style strap I was using a Hyman-style ribbon strap hooked to the D-ring at the top of the boot joint. Even when seated with minimal motion on my part, the thing was still pretty deadly. It took about a week before I stopped being taken unaware by a bocal-mounted reed flying towards my face. Once the boot style seat strap arrived, things were just fine.
(The quick horn changes combined with the need to keep a reed wet and the added time that it imposed didn't help things, to be sure. When I bought the instrument that I was using, the main reason for a comprehensive rebuild was to fix the metal cap at the bottom for a seat strap split ring.)
The main problem with a bassoon is that there is no good point at which to attach a neck strap. The only viable anchor point is at the top of the boot, as both of the other suitable locations (back of the long and the wing joints) are too thin and subject to cracking once the strain of the weight of the instrument was applied.
You obviously can't use the boot type for marching, since the strap would interfere with the marcher's legs. I guess that the attachment point could be cantilevered out and up or down on a metal strap, but then there's thumb key cluster to deal with.
At any rate, the French gave up on the bassoon for marching situations once the saxophone system was gotten together. I imagine that the rest of world has followed suit. You will notice that, in any of the groups ginned up to play the on-stage "band" in The Music Man, there are never any "big, fat bassoons" present and accounted for, despite the presence of one in the pit orchestra...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-19 14:57
Rite, y'are, B H, Terry, Alseq, I thot of the Eb Contra after posting, never have had that opportunity tho. It should have nearly the low range of the bassoon, beyond what is obtainable with [even] ?the low C bass?. If the passage to be transposed is short, simple, slow [3 S's] you can try it on Bb Bass cl, pretending that you are playing bari sax [for fingering/note location [+2#'s], however I always keep it to the bass's chalemeau=the bari's low register, for me, otherwise danger, bad notes, "in"cidentals. watch out !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-19 21:31
Oh goodness, I have a headache just reading that lot! let alone doing it, I think the clear answer is to bribe the bassoon player with what ever it takes so that she turns up for rehersals!
For now I think I will concentrate on transposing from parts in C to Bb, then when I am better at that (some notes still stump me, no idea why) I will try to add in reading from bass.
But that trick of adding set numbers of sharps sounds useful should I ever get my sticky mits on any of the larger clarinets.
Thanks for all your thoughts everyone
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-06-21 09:11
D ... just give it a go, if you work on practising transposing say a few minutes a day, it soon becomes second nature. But it does take dedication.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-21 09:51
Yeah I think I need to do this in an organised fashion. Normally if I know I am going to have to transpose I practice a bit before hand, then forget about it till next time. I should do a bit all the time then I wont forget.
A thought that just occured to me....is there actually a reason why we are in Bb in the first place?! I know I know, daft question, but seriously.....why?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-21 14:21
My answer to D's 2nd thot/question, not at all "daft", is influenced by what I've read in our "good books" and my experiences with nearly all of our cl "family". Conclusions, the sop cls C and smaller are too "bright/shrill", the A,G sops are "dull" , the altos, F [basset horn] and Eb have somewhat unusual tonalities, generally not very suitable for most music [IMHO], the bass in Bb [never played on one in C or A], my favorite, along with the sop Bb, giving the "best available" tone quality/interest of the above. I've had little experience with the contras, some players really like the c-alto in Eb, however it's and the c-bass' tonalities seem to be quite "hollow/spooky?", prob. due to the lack of even-numbered, low harmonics in their spectra, where the bassoons are the best choice for the "low" reeds. All is highly subjective. Comments? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-06-22 08:21
Why the different keys in the first place? The clarinet has a parallel bore, producing overtones in twelfths. This mans that early clarinets had notes missing - they could not, for example play what we know as the throat notes. Even today, these are weak notes. This meant that composers had to specify the clarinet that could play the notes they needed. In a lot of Beethoven era music, for example, C clarinets are specified, not for tonal qualities, but for the notes thay could play. The Bb became the most popular probably because of the tonal qualities as stated by Don and beacuse of its use in (military) bands when playing with brass in flat keys.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-22 16:03
Wow, wouldn't that be great in the middle of a rehersal...."oh sorry my clarinet doesn't play those notes" hahahah. fantastic!
I begin to see now why it has all become so complicated.
It is nice to be able to play so many notes on the clarinet though. When I play the recorder it is a continual shock to be happily playing away and then suddenly find I can't go up or down any more.
I will work on my transposition in a sensible and dedicated fashion - new newyears resolution.....
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-06-23 03:38
I was trying to find some biographical info on Berr --to fill in a young friend on his place in clarinet history.
I had bad luck, but evidently, Berr was a proponent of th 13-key clarinet that could play chromatically. Evidently, there was a strong reaction against this chromatic innovation --the players wanted to keep their quiver of one clarinet per concert key.
Any truth to this? Does anyone know Berr?
Now, please excuse me while I go search this site's archives for Berr.
thanks
Bob Phillips
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-23 12:17
>>>thought that just occured to me....is there actually a reason why we are in Bb in the first place?! I know I know, daft question, but seriously.....why?
Actually, I thought you were asking a slightly different question. What puzzles me is why we don't just give the notes their correct names?
What I mean is, when we play a throat Bb, why not learn it as an Ab, when we play a C (3 lh fingers down) call it Bb etc?
Wouldn't that make life easier? Or am I missing something?
Steve
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-23 14:01
stevensfo - I believe the written-note-placement and the consequent required fingering of the note, no matter "where" the note actually sounds in scale [or octave] is the important factor. Also consider the "ledger-lines" needed to accommodate the high sopranos and low basses. For me, the finding of more than 3 ledger-lines causes me to write in the note symbol, on bass cl, D and lower !! For any of the cl family, beyond the C's, one just needs to learn [by transposition] what the "concert" note actually is, IMHO. I see that as the basic reason why all cls read treble clef. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-06-23 14:30
Steve -- Consider Bob Phillips' "quiver" of clarinets (love the archery reference) in the old days. Would you want a single fingering to have a different note name for every instrument you play? Even today, among flute/C clarinet and the Bb and Eb clarinets and saxophones there are written note-fingering correspondences that make it MUCH easier to double.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-23 17:33
>>>For me, the finding of more than 3 ledger-lines causes me to write in the note symbol
Hmmm, so I'm not the only person who has to do this!
>>>Would you want a single fingering to have a different note name for every instrument you play?
You know, I never thought of that. Excellent point.
Steve
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-06-23 17:52
I know this may be slightly wandering from the topic.......I was wondering if a Bb clarinet player is doubling on tenor sax, and I notice from online fingering charts that sax extends down to an A, whereas a clarinet can go lower, does the sax player have to transpose the clarinet music up an octave?
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-23 19:44
No. The whole point of the tenor sax is that it IS a 'tenor' and thus plays lower, otherwise it would be easier to use an alto sax which is closer in range to the clarinet.
I made the mistake of buying an old alto sax from Ebay. I had thought of playing duets with my son on his Bb trumpet. However, it's in Eb and the problem of transposing is so time consuming that I wish I'd got a Bb tenor.
As soon as my wife's forgiven me for buying the alto sax, I'll be looking for a tenor! 
Steve
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-06-23 19:59
Thanks steve, a tenor plays lower in pitch, but as far as written notation goes, doesn't a clarinet go lower? So if a tenor is using clarinet music don't some adjustments need to be made for some of the low notes below the staff?
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-23 21:16
Oh sorry, yes, I understand your question now. We have exactly this problem at home, for example, my son can play some of my clarinet music on his trumpet, but some notes may be below or above his range.
Likewise, I may play a solo piece of clarinet music on the sax (no transposing) but I'm in trouble if the notes go too low...etc.
In that case, I guess you have a choice. Go up an octave, which may lead onto more problems (but can sound quite good!), or simply 'cheat' and play a different note that harmonises or make the previous note last longer. Actually I've found that in duets, you can get away with this sort of thing.
The main thing is: HAVE FUN!
Steve
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-23 21:54
GBK/MC - Since this thread is tending toward a discussion of "ranges" of our several insts, is there a "range-compass" chart on Sneezy or Klarinet to help our "newbies. Also the merits etc of cylindrical and conical bores are being hinted at. Are there simple explanations of these musical realities?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-06-23 23:31
Thanks much, thats a great chart.
I guess what threw me off is that I see a lot of music books that are for
Bb Clarinet/Tenor Sax and I was wondering how that could be if the range is different. But I assume that the compilers take the range into account so that both instruments can play the same music. Right?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-24 02:52
TKS, Glenn, I was sure you would know "where". Its better than my old one, will copy it off and get out a straight-edge to determine at least the lowest notes of insts in which I'm interested. I might quibble with some of the highest notes indicated, in partic. the alto and bass cls, as I often run both up to ridiculous heights, for fun !! Hope this answers some of our poster's ?'s. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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