 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robyn
Date: 2005-06-10 05:04
I am relatively new to teaching clarinet, so I have so far only taken on beginning and intermediate students. I have now had two beginning students with the problem of too much saliva, and since it is never something I remember dealing with myself, I am at a loss for what (if anything) I can do to help. My current student plays a few notes and very quickly gets that gurgly, crackly sound of excess moisture in the mouthpiece. I have taught her to suck on the mouthpiece to get it out, but within just a few notes it is back. Is this a fairly common problem, and is there anything I can do to help her with it? Is it something that just goes away on its own after she has been playing for a while (she has played for about 6-7 months and just started lessons with me)? My other student who had this problem never got past it for the year or so that I worked with her.
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Author: igor
Date: 2005-06-10 05:19
Wow, that's exactly what is happening to me! I couldn't describe it better. Kind of "gurgly" sound indeed! And, yes I suck on the mouthpiece to get it rid of it.
And it is not just about the sound. Saliva is dripping out of the bell right down there... you know... wife is joking that daddy is getting so excited he is wetting himself like a little doggy
I heard that some people just naturally produce more saliva... If anything, it supposedly contributes to healthy teeth (I heard that long time ago from a dentist so I don't know if it is true or not).
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Author: igor
Date: 2005-06-10 05:19
forgot to add -- i am not a young player, alas.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-06-10 08:37
First thing to Igor...
95% of what is coming out of the end of you clarinet is not saliva, but the condensation of your breath on the insid of the instrument. This is perfectly normal, and can vary with your climate etc.
For the reeds...
I had trouble with 'water' on the reed for years, mainly in performance. You can actually take steps to 'waterproof' your reeds so that it becomes less of a problem, the 'water' runs off the reed more effectively and in to the mouthpiece.
I do this by rubbing the back of the reed with my own saliva, just occasionally before and after practice particularly when the reed is new. Rubbing it on waxy paper can also have a similar effect.
At the end of the day, learn to cope with it. If it happens it happens, but if you feel it coming often the worst thing to do is try and fix it, because in moving the embouchure you will simply have another factor to battle against and you may hinder yourself further.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-06-10 10:20
>>95% of what is coming out of the end of you clarinet is not saliva, but the condensation of your breath on the insid of the instrument. This is perfectly normal, and can vary with your climate etc.
I agree. Most of spring, summer and autumn is very humid here and our instruments are often very wet. The worst offender is my saxophone. Perhaps it's because the water condenses faster on metal. If I play for more than 10 minutes I always stick some tissue paper inside to absorb everything .
Steve
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-10 10:28
Well, I remember telling a student one time that what you swab out of the clarinet is actually condensed water. Then I had to stop and qualify that statement. I've seen one or two kids who were actually drooling into the instrument.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-10 11:08
<<...95% of what is coming out of the end of you clarinet is not saliva, but the condensation of your breath on the inside of the instrument....>>
I think any saxophone repair technician can tell you that SOME players blow an enormous amount of saliva, complete with dead mouth lining etc, into their instrument. It shows up more with saxes because many sax players rarely swab their instrument, particularly the neck. Admittedly, this material is often too viscous to get to the end of a clarinet and drip out, so what drips out is more likely to be condensation.
Personally, I collect saliva in a space that I ensure is there under my tongue just behind my lower front teeth, ready to be swallowed at the next opportunity. If i did not do this, then I would indeed have a saliva problem around my reed.
Some players may have a relatively short fraenulum, which may restrict the formation of this saliva collection area.
See http://members.tripod.com/~Caroline_Bowen/tonguetie.html
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-06-10 11:29
Would it possibly be that the reed isn't being soaked enough (a minute or two) before playing, thus causing the saliva to run haphazardly over the back of the reed? So if the reed is - to a point - saturated then it won't attract more water/saliva. My beginning students didn't know about this. A similar thing happens with water bubbling in the tone holes, and a simple oiling of the barrel and upper joint cures that (the Doctor's bore oil, of course!) - allowing the water to just run instead of accumulating. Other thoughts?
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-10 11:55
Yuck!
Gordon, you mentioned swabbing out the neck of a sax. How do you do that without getting the swab stuck in there? And how about a bass clarinet neck?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-10 13:09
Same as clarinet or oboe - by using an appropriate pull through for the diameters (and obstructions) involved.
Or the neck can be washed with water and detergent, using an appropriate bottle brush.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-10 13:22
<<...So if the reed is - to a point - saturated then it won't attract more water/saliva. My beginning students didn't know about this. A similar thing happens with water bubbling in the tone holes, and a simple oiling of the barrel and upper joint cures that (the Doctor's bore oil, of course!) - allowing the water to just run instead of accumulating. Other thoughts?>>
Brenda you seem to be writing about two completely different approaches, both having some validity.
One approach is to coat a surface with a water repellent, such as oil. As you rightly say, this makes the water collect in drops and run away. Unfortunately, it may run INTO tone holes.
The other, opposite approach to dealing with water in the bore, is to coat the surface with a surfactant (e.g. detergent) which makes the moisture spread evenly over the surface, so it does NOT form into drops, and does not run anywhere. Rather, it just seeps over the surface, hopefully being insufficient in quantity to seep into tone holes.
Perhaps the ideal is to have the surfactant inside the bore, and the water-resistant surface in the tone holes. I have used Scotchguard fabric protector as a non-oily product for tone holes (and even pads).
I don't know what the ideal surfactant would be.
Saliva on a reed acts as a surfactant, because of its slight detergent properties.
IMHO.
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-06-10 14:39
I'll admit that the title of this thread "Young Players and Saliva", made me think "Oh that's disgusting!" But I still read the thread.
One very important way to keep saliva from going into the mouthpiece is to tongue just below the tip of the reed. If you tongue the very tip of the reed ( which means you will be touching the tip of the mouthpiece as well) then saliva will surely build up. What's worse is that saliva will build up between the reed and the rails of the mouthpiece which will surely lead to that gurgling sound.
Take care,
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 17:28)
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-06-10 15:17
Gordon, Although I don't know the science of this it appears to be working for me, along with having synthetic pads installed on those vulnerable keys. Perhaps you're right by explaining that the oil allows the water to run harmlessly down the bore. It doesn't get into the tone holes because of gravity - I don't lay the instrument down on its side. Solving the "bubbles in keys" was always a big question mark (???) in my mind especially since it spoiled an exam piece. But at least since this works, unless a better idea comes along like your suggestion of Scotchguard in the holes, I can now concentrate on playing. Thank you for your observations.
It seemed that the same saturation principle would apply to water accumulating in reeds while playing. I'm firmly in the camp of those advocating real water to soak reeds because I believe the smaller molecules would saturate the cane more effectively. This would be another concept better explained by those having scientific knowledge of these things.
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Author: Robyn
Date: 2005-06-10 16:18
Thanks everyone for the ideas so far. Just for clarification, since there are kind of two discussions going on here...the gurgling is coming from the mouthpiece and I'm 99% positive it's saliva. I don't think condensation would collect that badly or that quickly up in the mouthpiece.
Ron Jr: Sorry for grossing you out. That was definitely unintentional, but I guess it is kind of a gross subject. Regarding tonguing...I will experiment with that because it does get worse when she tongues properly. For the time being, when she "tongues", she is actually closing off her throat between each note. We're still trying to fix that...
I will also have her make sure her reed is thoroughly wet before she starts. Any other ideas you (the board) have would be great!
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Author: szyJYM
Date: 2005-06-10 17:32
Sometimes that happens to me, as I'm sure it does to everyone else at least occasionally. I'd imagine that the gurgling sound in the mouthpiece is the result of the player blowing not only air but also saliva directly into the mouthpiece, in essence spitting into the intrument itself. And that's quite gross.
I think the best solution would be to just remind the student to keep the spit where it belongs - in the mouth. But, I don't know.
--Mike
Wide-eyed music student entering college this fall
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2005-06-11 14:37
Hi Robyn,
I am new to playing 15 months (self taught), and also had this problem, although I am 57 and not a kid! :-)
I found that not eating 1-2 hours before playing, and brushing my teeth helped a lot, drink only water, no sodas etc. Also increasing the airstream is very important. I found if I blew harder the gurgling was less. When I breathe I breathe in through my mouth both playing and not playing. I also take every chance I can to suck the saliva out of the mouthpiec during rests, and when I get a chance I pull a swab through the clarinet (about every 1/2 hour). I went to cork pads on the top part of the clarinet.
This is my first post and I have received so much valuable info here I hope that I have contributed a little.
I hope this Helps,
Jim
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