 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-07 22:28
Okee dokee, I think I remember seeing a thread on shining up keys before, but I think they were about silver keys.
Now that I have just gotten the old Vito Clari-tone, the keys need some buffing. It looks like the tenon rings are copper, and the keys are nickel and copper. What would I use to buff them up if I didn't have a buffing wheel?
My dad has a dremyl tool (however spelled). Could I maybe get a little buffing attachment for that and use it?
Thanks,
Contragirl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-08 12:23
Yeh, you sure can get little buffing wheels for the Dremel tool and you can use them too. I have lots of other opinions on the subject too, but you didn't ask for opinions. Time for another cup of coffee.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-08 14:19
As far as I know, the buffing mops that fit Dremel are inappropriately small small and the motor itself, inappropriately weak, to make much headway with buffing cupro-nickel alloys.
You would more than likely use up a buff mop for every couple of keys.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-08 15:15
Well, since no one else has said it, I'd recommend you not do that yourself. First of all, shiny keys have nothing to do with how the instrument plays, and second, if you don't know what you're doing, you might seriously damage the instrument. If you have your heart set on shiny beautiful keys, take it or send it to a professional technician.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-08 16:34
Well, the point of me buying this clarinet IS to look pretty. I mean... what professional buys a crappy old plastic student horn to play on? Especially in white. I wanted another novelty clarinet to just say I have. And cleaned up, it would look so cool. With the copper accents and the messed up nickel, it's hard to tell what color each metal is.
I've done some minor repair and cleaning myself, so I'm not worried about killing the poor thing. If I kill it, it probably deserves to die. (It's looking pretty rough right now) Plus the cost of the overhaul would definately be about 4 times the cost of the instrument. If it were a car, it wouldn't be worth fixing! I'm also looking to learn some more about repair and stuff, so this would be a good horn to start with.
DS, I did ask my daddy. He said he didn't know. :(
My dad does have a table mounted "sharpening stone" wheel, that does the whole spin around fast and sharpen knives and blades. Maybe they have buffing wheels for those?
I might give in and send it to a tech eventually. It does need a repad and recork, and as I have done successful recorking jobs, I have not had successful repads. :( But I need to see if this thing is worth fixing up since it seems to be a little more tarnished than normal.
--CG
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-06-08 19:29
contragirl,
I confess to having cleaned clarinet keys with a Dremel tool with a buffing attachment, but it was an old clarinet that I didn't value highly.
It worked quite well and didn't do any damage, but I still wouldn't try it with my Selmer Recital or other valuable instrument.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-08 22:31
A buffing mop can usually be installed on a grinding machine instead of the grinding wheel. You would need to remove any guide at the front, and any cover over the wheel, if left on, would very likely make the machine more dangerous than without it.
A buffing machine usually has a lot stronger motor than the the cheap grinding machines that are are in hardware shops.
If you want to get into repairs, especially to do them efficiently and well, then you will have to face the fact that you will need to spend quite a lot of money on equipment.
Without a proper buffing machine, anything is possible, even by hand, but could be very, very slow, especially on tarnished cupro-nickel, which is far harder to polish than silver.
Have you positively identified the surface as unplated cupro-nickel (often called 'nickel silver'), or is it nickel plating (even more difficult to polish), or ......?
Even ragging cloth would do the job, and quite likely faster than a Dremel. This involves cloth strips impregnated (either bought like that or done by yourself) with a polishing compound. Put one end of the strip in the vice, and hold the other, while dragging the key up and down the cloth.
The secret to this (or any other ) method being successful and efficient is a choice of polishing/buffing compound that is matched to the type of metal being polished. For example a good silver polish will have almost no effect on cupro-nickel tarnish, and a good polish for nickel plating will be far too aggressive (i.e. damaging) for silver plating.
Buffing can be quite involved... mop material and construction, surface speed of mop, power of motor, choice of buff soap etc. also, a lot of damage can be done during buffing, unless the operator has considerable experience. For example, if you are inexperienced, expect the machine to regularly throw a key across the room, or even cause personal injury.
Buffing is also a filthy operation, with plenty dust (from the mop and the polishing compound) put into the air. Some protection for the lungs is important.
Buffing really needs two hands to securely hold the item being buffed, which means that if you use a Dremel, it will be difficult unless you can mount the machine in some way.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-09 02:09
Attachment: barrel.jpg (219k)
Attachment: top.jpg (279k)
This doesn't look like the kind of job buffing with just a rag would clean. It's kinda caked.
Here are some pics, when I mean copper plated keys, they look copper. It's really hard to tell in these pics, because for some reason, even silver & Nickel look yellow.
But if you look at the picture of the top joint, you can see that the rings are shining silver/white, while the trill keys and such are shining copper. The same goes with the barrel. You can see that the yellow base metal is dominant, while some of the copper shine is still left on some of the tenon ring.
--Contragirl
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-09 02:16
Attachment: bottom.jpg (253k)
Here is the bottom joint, it looks like that lowest pad cup is the "shiniest."
--CG
Post Edited (2005-06-09 02:17)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-09 04:16
The tenon rings seem to be the yellow colour of brass rather not copper, which has quite a red colour.
For a reason that escapes my lack of expertise, copper plating is often done between the base metal cupro-nickel and silver or nickel plating. (BTW cupro-nickel is rather different from nickel, being roughly 80% copper, but with a silvery appearance like coins, from the rest being nickel)
Perhaps somebody has already buffed through the top (silver or nickel)plating, leaving this copper exposed. But if this were the case, then there would be areas where the copper plating was worn through to the base metal/
It is difficult to tell without seeing it.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-06-09 05:52
If I were you and wanted to clean up this clarinet, I'd just get a small tube of Flitz and an old cotton T-shirt and polish the keys by hand (of course you have to take them off to do this but you'd have to take them off to buff them). It will take a little longer but probably be as effective and less trouble in the long run, particularly than using the grinding wheel. While the keys are off, I'd give the body of the instrument a good wash inside and out with disinfectant soap and clean all the rods and pivot screws with light oil. I'd also replace the pads with Valentino greenbacks. I know it's not what the professional repair techs will recommend but you can learn alot about how the clarinet works and, if you're patient, end up with a decent "bad weather" instrument. The key is to be patient and work on it gradually -- maybe when you're watching TV. Make sure each pad is well-seated as you go. Also make sure you have some system to keep the rods and screws from getting mixed up.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: DougR
Date: 2005-06-09 10:37
Is there any way you can find out from Vito what they used to plate these keys?
I ask because the plating almost looks like some kind of cheesy "genuine simulated 24-karat gold-colored plating" that will flake off every time the weather changes. If you can find out what sort of plating they used, it might--MIGHT-- help.
It's also hard to tell from your pix what's plating and what's the metal under the plating. I suppose a session with some Flitz and a t-shirt (as suggested above) might at least help you tell which is which. It would also help you figure out what you'd end up with even if you DID decide to buff the thing.
Personally, it looks to me like you'll end up with mottled keys no matter what--the plated part will be shiny ITS color, the unplated part will be shiny ITS color, and the 2 colors will be totally different.
I bet you end up opting for a spray can of Krylon. As to color, can I recommend...cammy green??
good luck...
dougR
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-09 10:46
The copper is between the metal that the key is made of and the plating. It makes a better bond between the plating and the key material than applying the plating directly.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-06-09 10:53
crnichols wrote:
> The copper is between the metal that the key is made of and the
> plating. It makes a better bond between the plating and the
> key material than applying the plating directly.
Copper is also used because as a softer metal it can be buffed smooth with little effort, making the next layer (a hard wear layer) very smooth after plating and requiring very little effort to buff out.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-09 11:29
In the "old days" steel parts received two underplates prior to the final chrome plating. That was for automotive trim and home appliance devices. The first layer was copper, the second layer was nickel and the final layer was chrome(chromium). In additon to the buffing advantage Mark cited the copper helped prevent electrolytic corrosion of the steel. I'm inclined to speculate that in this case some prior owner may have even tried to lacquer some parts. Also, there used to be some faux gold plating process used for Art Deco period lampware....but I forget what it was called. Very cheap but very neat...for awhile.
Bob Draznik
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-06-09 13:47
Well, the cooper parts are definately the shiney parts, not the under coat. I know what a copper undercoat/base looks like when it's worn through, because my Buffet is doing it. It could be a gold laquer, though. Even though it looks more orange than a gold would. The parts that are not so tarnished shine the gold/copper color.
I'm wondering now if the white clari-tones came with gold/copper keys (as the clear Buffet comes with copper) to look pretty, or if someone did laquer them. I've never seen another clari-tone, but this one looks like it has been gold/copper for a very long time.
--CG
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