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 Newbie questions
Author: igor 
Date:   2005-06-07 05:54

Hi, I just received my clarinet and I don't have a teacher (yet). I got some books and instructional DVD/CD etc. plus I am using online resources. Please someone answer a few questions.


1. Terminology. What exactly is a squeak? Any accidentally overblown note, not just a reall high tone? So, if one deliberately oveblows a 12th is it "overblowing" vs. an "uncontrollable" squeak? Let's say I am trying to blow the chalumeau low E but what comes out is the clarion B that's a 12th higher. Is it a "squeak"?

2. What exactly is biting? How much pressure is too much pressure?
Is biting different from pinching?


3. I've only been playing for 5 days and I can't play higher than the clarion A5 reliably (big surprise). I would try blowing B5 or C6 and there would be no sound unless I put more mouthpice into the mouth.


4. Conversely, I can reliably play all tones in the chalumeau register if I don't have too much reed in the mouth. As I slowly increase the amount of reed/mp in my mouth the reeds starts to vibrate more freely, and the tone seem to change favorably (don't know how to describe it) but sqeaks become more often.

5. I also noticed that if I have more reed in the mouth but increase the airflow I can play the chalumeau range without "sqeaks" AND it seems that I can also play higher notes of the clarion register, such as B5 and C6. I practiced playing, say, C4 followed by G5, then D4/A5, E4/B5, and finally F4/C6 by opening the register key and making sure my embouchoure doesn't change. Am I making any sense?

BTW, the reeds I am using are Vandoren strength 2 and 2 1/2. My mouthpices are Hite Premiere and B45. Is there anything wrong with this combination?

Thanks.



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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: Mike Clarinet 
Date:   2005-06-07 08:45

The best advice I can think of is find a teacher as soon as possible. Without wanting to be discouraging, if you carry on on your own for too long, you will inevitably develop some bad habits which a teacher will have to un-teach you before you begin to progress. This is particularly true of embouchure (mouth, lips, tongue, bite/pinch) and breathing, reed selection and position on the mouthpiece. It is easier to show these things than to try to describe them with words, and if you are having problems, a teacher can best help you sort them out face-to-face.

I assume that you are referring to C4 as middle C i.e. C in the middle of the Chalumeau register. For now, I would concentrate on the Chalumeau register only, learning to play fron low E to open G comfortably without squeaks - try not to run before you can walk. Yes, you are correct in saying that a squeak is an uncontrolled overtone. Don't try to deliberately squeak. Unfortunately, squeaking is a way of life for beginner clarinettists, and only practice will eliminate them. Most clarinet players I know still let out the odd one even after many years' practice. One thing to check is that your fingers completely cover the holes and that when you move between notes your fingers move together and the transition between notes is clean. Also listen for tuning - it it never too early to start doing that. A tuning meter will help - but don't become reliant on it (pulls pin out of explosive device -memories of an earlier thread on use of tuners that got quite heated).

Can you already read music? I don't mean to be insulting here if you already play another instrument and already can read music. I have encountered on several occasions people who say "I play (insert instrument)" but on an invitiation to play in our community band say that they cannot read music, which is as much use as a chocolate teapot. If you cannot read music then I suggest you learn as soon as possible. Just learing the notes on the instrument is not enough if you want to play music. Composes have to communicate to you what they want you to play. I know it sounds obvious but...

I know this is a lot of waffle and barely touches on your original questions, but those are difficult to answer without seeing face-to-face. These are my ramblings as an amateur who has occasionally been asked to help beginners. The teachers on this board will probably say I'm talking rubbish and can give you better advice.

Above all, enjoy your music and welcome to the insanity that is clarinet playing.

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: GBK 
Date:   2005-06-07 11:41

Use the Hite Premiere mouthpiece and put the B45 in the drawer.

The B45 is a TERRIBLE beginner's mouthpiece. With a tip opening of 119.5mm, it is far too resistant for those just starting to play. Many beginners get frustrated by using this mouthpiece and have had negative experiences with learning the clarinet solely because of it.

The Hite Premiere, or the Fobes Debut are both more student friendly and far better choices...GBK



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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: Synonymous Botch 
Date:   2005-06-07 11:51

You may also wish to begin with just the reed, ligature, mouthpiece and barrel assembled (like a duck call).

This will simplify the production of a first tone, without all the fiddly bits under your fingers...

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: ohsuzan 
Date:   2005-06-07 12:43

<<4. Conversely, I can reliably play all tones in the chalumeau register if I don't have too much reed in the mouth. As I slowly increase the amount of reed/mp in my mouth the reeds starts to vibrate more freely, >>

You sound as if you might be an oboe player!

And you also sound as if you are a very observant beginner.

As a clarinetist, I was never aware of changing my mouth placement very much -- not nearly as much as one does on the oboe.

Put your reed on the mouthpiece and look at it sideways. You will note that the reed and mouthpiece part company somewhere about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down the mouthpiece. The rule of thumb I have heard here is that you put your lips about where the reed contacts the mouthpiece.

Have fun experimenting!

Susan

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: David Peacham 
Date:   2005-06-07 12:48

Sounds to me like you are doing pretty well in your five days. Your observations about more mouthpiece means better sound but more squeaks are spot-on. Finding the right compromise is the trick.

I suggest that you concentrate on the lower register. Work up to the high notes gradually. The danger of playing too high too soon is that you will teach yourself to force the notes out, the "I'll play a top F if it kills me" syndrome. If playing a note is a strain, you aren't ready for it yet; the same note will come out a lot easier in a week or a month or two. C6 is a peculiarly difficult note to hit reliably; B5 is a lot easier.

Biting and pinching are the same thing. You need some pressure. I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all right amount. Check your intonation on open G at medium volume. If you are playing flat you are probably using too little pressure on the reed. If you are sharp, you are probably using too much. That assumes the clarinet is in tune to start with. If your jaw aches, you're using too much.

My experience as a beginner (not very many years ago) was that Mitchell Lurie reeds were more consistent and easier to play than Vandoren. They are graded much softer: you would need a 3 or even a 3.5. That is not to say they are better reeds - I found they were better for a beginner. Given the choice now, I would take Vandoren every time.

-----------

If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.

To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.


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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: RichardB 
Date:   2005-06-07 14:18

As a beginner who is a little further along from you, but has been through this recently, may be I can add some thoughts.

Don't worry about the high notes yet. Keep playing the Chalumeau until your mouth muscles develop, then one day the higher notes will magically be there. I am using Galpers book, and he doesn't take you above the break for a long time. I think that works well.

A teacher is really useful. Spotting the difference between a misplaced finger squeak, and a squeak due to the the throat position producing the higher register is difficult on your own, but a teacher can tell you instantly.

I have a Hite Premiere and an AT45 (whcih I think is a plastic copy of a B45). Contrary to almost all the advice on this board I use the AT45 because the Hite sounds squawky to me. I think you need stronger reeds with the Hite than the AT45. I too use Vandoren 2 and 2.5s with th AT45.

Richard

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: BobD 
Date:   2005-06-07 22:30

Igor...I'd say you are doing admirably considering everything. A squeak is an unexpected high pitched sound that sounds something like a note but isn't.

Bob Draznik

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: igor 
Date:   2005-06-07 23:50


Yes, I know that I will need a teacher sooner than later. But I am hesitating for the following reasons (not necessarily in the order of importance):

1. I heard from others that many teachers are college students/grads themselves. I don't really think it is very common for many of them to teach a 40y.o *foreign* dude ;) Don't know how to put it better, but I am sure you know what I am talking about...

2. Finding a teacher doesn't always mean finding a good teacher. That's an additional stress... I am not the kind of person who can easily fire a teacher if he/she doesn't meet my expectations. Plus, how do I know? It is like the NFL draft. We don't know till 3 years later ;)

3. A lot of people who do have a teacher ask exact same questions on the web.

4. I am not sure about the clarinet playing, but in other activities bad habits are easy to develop even with a teacher. As an extreme, I read of a saxophone player who had been studying with a teacher for 2-3 years but had nevertheless been tonguing on the roof of the mouth.

5. I roughly divide all people into those who absolutely need an instructor even in a butt kicking contest and those who tend to achieve more success in teaching themselves. I surely belong to the latter category.
Of course, I realize that the importance of having a teacher varies based on a specific task. Probably music is one of those tasks. I once tried to teach myself to play tennis based on videos and books and I must admit that that was a horrible idea ;-) On the other hand, I taught myself most things I can do reasonably well, like speaking English or computer programming which I do for a living (yes, still). I came to this country just a few years ago on my own and I had very little guidance so I had to figure out a lot of things myself… That might explain my tendencies… Plus internet changed life drastically… Sounds obvious but the more I think about it the more I realize that it’s thanks to internet that a lot of things are a lot easier to achieve for this generation…

6. Speaking of the clarinet playing, I did a lot of reading and analyzing months before buying the clarinet. I could certainly be wrong, but I think that I am aware of most common mistakes beginners tend to make because people discuss the same things over and over again. I think about those things for a while before and while practicing. You know, things like the lower lip/bottom teeth relationship, jaw position, amount of jaw pressure, length of the mp in the mouth, tongue position, the air flow, the breath support, etc. etc. Of course as they say the final test is the tone quality and that definitely requires a teacher.
Plus I can make a rough comparison with the sound on instructional CDs. I also use an electronic tuner to check the pitch accuracy. I tried playing on the mouthpiece + barrel to make sure I get a steady F#.



I totally agree with the concept of learning to walk first. I am just not sure about one thing. It seem to be possible to play chalumeau reliably even though the embouchure is slightly imperfect, for example not enough reed in the mouth to vibrate. This would become immediately obvious if one tried playing higher clarion tones. So I just thought of it as a “reality check”: play some chalumeau tones then open the register key and finger the same notes to see if they come out cleanly and the embouchure is unchanged… But I agree if a note is too high I should give up and try later.

Yes, I can read music. To an extent, of course. That was an ideal thing to teach myself. I’d been messing with my child’s recorders (soprano and alto) for a month or so. Since recorder is so easy to blow and I was not concerned with the quality of my tone, I mostly concentrated on the musical notation. I still have some difficulties with things like syncopations and shorter notes but for the most part rhythm is not a problem for me. The pitch is another story. I had always been thinking of myself as having a tin ear because I was never able to sing in tune. That’s why I was considered to be “hopeless” and I’d always believed that music was not for me.

Anyway, it turned out to be really helpful to learn both soprano and alto recorder fingerings. Since clarinet overblows in 12ths, it is perfectly natural for me that the same fingering is used for say, C, and G. Plus, it was a pleasant surprise for me that basic fingerings in the chalumeau and clarion registers are really similar to those of the recorder! Another positive side effect of learning musical notation along with the recorder fingerings was that I felt completely relaxed. As a result, my fingers were very relaxed, too, no stress, no stiffness, so I learned to finger really fast and I am hoping this will help me with the clarinet fingering too.


No I am not an oboe player, but see above. I guess the nature of my work somewhat helps in being analytical and observant (well, sometimes over analytical though ;-)


Thank you all!



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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2005-06-08 01:39



1. "Terminology...."
If low E jumps up a 12th, then there is something pretty wrong with the way you are blowing. A squeak more often refers to an unwanted substitute overtone that is a lot higher than this. In fact it may not even be an overtone. It probably occurs when the mode of vibration of the reed is completely independent of the rest of the instrument, no longer controlled by the length of the air column.

2. "What exactly is biting?" Seeing you have an analytical mind...
Some pressure needs to be exerted on the reed by the lip, which is in turn supported (for most players) to at least some degree by the lower teeth. The contribution offered by the lower teeth is determined by how firmly the lower jaw is closed, and also by any leverage used via the angle of the clarinet to the jaws. The support provided via the lower teeth probably varies quite a lot from player to player. What exactly is biting? It is a label given, usually to another player, when a person thinks that some excessive support from the teeth is being given. The amount of support is pretty difficult to measure. Some people who give quite a lot of support could well be so used to it that they are no longer aware that they are doing it.

The support that can be given by the lip itself, independent of the lower teeth, is dependent on the firmness of the lip tissue (perhaps age is a factor here), how sharp the teeth may or may not be (as regards pain &/or damage from cutting into the lip), and especially the condition (strength) of the muscles that are used to support the lip itself. When a person is a beginner, or well out of practice, or the reed is too hard, then the pressure contribution from the lip itself may just not be sufficient, so the player resorts to more support from the teeth - there is no other option! Then if the player complains about a sore lip, then other, more superior teacher/players, who have well-conditioned lips and muscles, accuse the other of 'biting'. IMHO. Bear in mind that excessive pressure on the reed may make the volume/tone stuffy.

3, 4, 5.

There are many parameters which contribute to a good, controlled sound. It is selecting and controlling the balance of all these parameters that can make you a good player. You have done well in discovering a few of them. A teacher who explains these parameters in a manner which has meaning to you in will greatly speed your path to great playing. I wish you luck in finding one. On the other hand, the voyage of SELF-discovery, although it may be slower, can be exciting and very satisfying. You seem to have the analytical skills to make this possible. The journey is one of having a good sound in your head, that you are aiming for, and the inclination to experiment with all the parameters you can find in order to refine the balance. Do not neglect experimenting with the all important breath pressure, adjusting the other parameters to suit. Some very good players are largely self-taught. Some personalities could never teach themselves.

I wish you well with your quest, however it is carried out.

Just another perspective for you to consider, from a good amateur, self-taught player.

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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: Clarinetgirl06 
Date:   2005-06-08 05:15

First of all, I admire you for teaching yourself so many things and putting dedication and thought into each of them.

You said it would be weird to have a college student teach a "40 year old foreign dude". It wouldn't be weird at all. I have 1 student right now and she is a senior citizen in her 70's. Granted, she used to play clarinet in high school, but that was about 50 years ago, so we are pretty much starting from scratch. Who cares if you are 40 or foreign? All that matters is that you want to make music and improve! Just find a great teacher and you'll acheive so much!

Good luck! : )



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 Re: Newbie questions
Author: Rick Williams 
Date:   2005-06-09 20:52

Hi Igor:
Welcome to the grand asylum of clarinet players. Although I truely admire a person of rugged individualism mano a clarinet so to speak I think everyone here has pretty well recomended that you find a teacher and just based on who is posting I think there is about 250 years of collective playing experience in those recomendations...g

I fully imagine that if you say where you are that someone could possibly recomend a teacher with experience teaching adult beginners. As an adult rethread myself who picked it up again after 30 years, trust me, it is the right move and will save you lots of frustration in the long run. Just think of it along the same lines as learning to fly an airplane. Both are complex tasks and everyone will be much relieved knowing that you have a competant instructor next to you during the initial stages of learning..BG!

Best of luck
RW

Best
Rick

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