 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DareWreck8402
Date: 2005-05-25 23:15
Hello everyone,
I just recently got out of jaw surgery, about 10 hours ago actually. And since I have a pretty long recovery time, which includes getting back to playing (about a month), I was thinking I should try out some new mouthpieces. I'm not happy with my current mouthpiece (Pyne BN-Med.), and I was wondering who the big names in the clarinet world use? Players such as Robert Marcellus, Larry Combs, Drucker, etc. I'm looking for a DARK DARK tone, I dispise the sound of bright tone. Can anyone give me a heads up on some super cool mouthpieces? Thanks everyone!
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-25 23:49
Wow - best of luck on your recovery.
Was this surgery for TMJ? Or was this to reset the jaw for a severe under or overbite?
Depending on the type and reason for your surgery, you may find that your sound is very different...and that you require a different mouthpiece, or the one you are currently using fits just fine. If you had your jaw reset into a different position, you may require a much different facing than you expect.
I tried a Pyne once, I don't remember the facing, but it was more open. I didn't find the tone bright, but I wasn't crazy about the tone...for me it was harder to focus. It was loud, but seemed too spread out. But, it worked great for my friend.
I'm using an older 5RV Lyre, which is flexible for me. Some people have a dark sound on this MP...but my tone is more in the middle. I have a theory that tone has more to do with your oral cavity than the mouthpiece. Sure, the mouthpiece is influencial (if a mp is a piece of junk...etc.) but on average, you will always sound like you.
If you like the Pyne brand, perhaps a different model will suit you. Many people like the Forbes MP. In addition to my 5RV, I have an M-15 and old ched. But, I always have my MP's refaced when I purchase the stock Vandoreen's.
Once you get back in shape...try your old MP's...perhaps they will feel different. Also, find a good MP refacer..and try to work with them.
Post Edited (2005-05-25 23:51)
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Author: steve s
Date: 2005-05-26 01:47
if you want a dark, dark, sound, it has been my experience that any one component of the set up really has nothing to do with achieving it. You have to find the unique total set up that you like, and then figure out how to achieve the sound quality inside of your head upon the instrument.
Big-name anything won't guarantee you anything.
Furthermore, I would concentrate on developing tonal flexibility. The dark dark sound is not always appropriate;
The late great principal clarinet of the Cleveland Orchestra, Robert Marcellus, possessed the ability to produce a tone described as a dark globe of warm oil with a golden candle in the middle, but in reality, after listening to him for more than 15 years as a kid in Cleveland and taking monthly lessons with him before I went away to college, I can say that he was capable of producing any tone on the clarinet that the music required, from laser beam to black smoke.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-05-26 13:03
Start with something that plays your favorite brand of reed without adjustment - comfort is important.
Then, keep to a living maker that can make refinements by mail.
I recommend getting a "fitting" in person, if possible.
Asking for advice about achieving a given sound is like describing a spiral staircase with your hands in your pockets - it's effectively impossible.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-05-26 13:30
I also am in awe of the tonal quality produced [on CD's, a few in person] by our "top" pros on Bb, wish I could do likewise. As of now!, I'm quite satisfied with the sound of my alto and bass mp set-ups, glass and soft reeds, but would like a bit more "dark" on sops. I believe my large bores[15.0 + mm] cls, CT and Dynamic 2 [early PF?] are a bit "darker" than the comparable [14.8 + mm] cls, Omega and L7, but haven't attempted recording for "proof?". I like to look at the mp-comparison charts in the brochures for comparison/selection interest. Just a splash of gasoline on THIS fire ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2005-05-26 14:09
Please contact Mr. Walter Grabner, who is a genius mouthpiece technician and can help you achieve the exact sound that you are looking for.
Walter Grabner
991 Wildwood Lane
Highland Park, IL 60035
847.266.8644
www.clarinetxpress.com
jmsa
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-05-26 15:04
I've read that Marcellus primarily used a Kaspar Chicago model specially made by Mr. Kaspar. In his earlier years with Cleveland, he used O'Brien crystals.
Years ago I heard Larry Combs was using a custom made Hawkins model. Use the search feature and you'll no doubt find several discussions on his setup.
Drucker is famous for having used the same Chedeville Lelandais mouthpiece for decades.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-26 15:16
From the archives, by Greg Smith:
Marcellus' mouthpieces:
"...Mouthpieces: Mostly Frank Kaspar of Chicago/Cicero. Mozart Concerto recording of October 21st, 1961 on a Chicago Kaspar. Also earlier in his career, Woodwind G8 ( A Chedeville Co. blank), Crystal GG brand (Capriccio Espagnol recording from 1958) and a short time double lipped on a Frank L. Kaspar of Ann Arbor in 1965 (which he cared for less) and early on (1953 - 54) - a Meloir (Bonade brand)..."
...GBK
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-05-26 15:25
Ralph and everyone -
There's a great interview with Marcellus at <www.clarinet-saxophone.asn.au/articles/marcellus.pdf>.
The story I heard is that he used a Chicago Kaspar for many years. One day he left his clarinet on his chair during a break and a curved skylight focused sunlight on the mouthpiece, which melted. I have no idea whether this is true. Perhaps Greg Smith or David Hattner can fill us in.
At any rate, he needed a new mouthpiece and tried many, including a crystal mouthpiece for about a year, on which he recorded the Cleveland Russian Record http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000CF33L/002-7764452-6447206?v=glance&s=classical&n=507846&vi=samples#disc_1. When George Szell asked him "do you **really** like that mouthpiece?" he took the hint and found another Kaspar.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-05-26 15:36
Ken,
Yep, I've read that interview many times. What a great source of info! And I also recall hearing about Szell dropping the hint about the crystal -- perhaps it was you I heard it from.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-05-26 18:41
.....and the interesting part is- despite all of the changes, Marcellus still sounded like Marcellus.
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2005-05-27 14:20
I think that Robert Marcellus also "required" or strongly suggested that his students at the Cleveland Institute and later at Northwestern University obtain Frank Kaspar Chicago or Cicero mouthpieces and use inverted Bonade ligatures----these mouthpieces at that time--1963-75 were easily obtainable and of good original quality. Later, after Frank Kaspar died, Mr. Marcellus also encouraged students to use mouthpieces by Rick Sayer.The beautiful sound that Mr. Marcellus produced on the many Cleveland Orchestra recordings at that time became for many players the "perfect" orchestral sound. Also, I do think that the Frank L. Kaspar mouthpiece that Mr. Marcellus used for a short time in the 1950's was given to him by Anthonly Gigliotti after Mr. Marcellus broke his Bonade "Melior"----Mr. Marcellus will be remembered for his brilliant musicianship, beautiful clarinetsound, and maybe more importantly for his great teaching skills.
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-05-27 14:47
DareWreck8402,
It might be useful to consider Artie Shaw's words on the subject (from The Clarinet, Spring 1985): "People are always asking me what mouthpiece I used. I never did know, I just hunted around until I found one that felt reasonably good. Then I would get a piece of emery paper and fool with it until I got it to where I wanted it."
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2005-05-27 14:49
"It might be useful to consider Artie Shaw's words on the subject (from The Clarinet, Spring 1985): "People are always asking me what mouthpiece I used. I never did know, I just hunted around until I found one that felt reasonably good. Then I would get a piece of emery paper and fool with it until I got it to where I wanted it." "
Considering how well Artie recalls so many other details in his oral biography, I think this may be another instance of him pulling people's legs.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-27 17:13
From The Clarinet Vol 14 No 1 (Fall 1986) - Interview with Benny Goodman on July 28,1976 by Ralph Strouf:
Ralph: "Mr Goodman, what kind of mouthpiece do you play on?"
Benny: "Well, I think this says Hawthorne. I picked it up in England and its a fine mouthpiece. I have a better one at home someplace but I can't seem to find it."
...GBK
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-05-27 17:17
Strange that Marcellus would use a Melior. The consensus seems to have been that they were crap. He probably had Kasper work on it extensively.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-05-27 17:42
I seem to recall that Marcellus said that he wemt through a number of the Melior mouthpieces until he found a good one.
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Author: ClarinetConnoisseur
Date: 2005-05-27 20:23
You may not take my opinion to mind since I've only been playing five years, but I've been playing on a Vandoren M-13 mouthpiece with an Eddie Daniels Rovner ligature and V12 reeds, strength 3 on my Buffet R13. This combination has gotten me first chair position in the All-State Band and into the MTSU Honors High School Clarinet Choir. I would also recommend you try a Gigliotti mouthpiece for a dark, rich sound. If these don't appeal to you, try a Carl Fobes San Fransisco Model. I also love the classically dark tone, but I think that the most important aspect of intonation is tune- I can't stand to be out of tune, even if my tone is dark! I hope this helps you.
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-05-27 20:36
In my completely humble opinion (that I'll take to the grave), you really can't go wrong with a good Clark Fobes. They're readily available through wwbw. Buy a few, try them, and pick the one that's best. I'm currently using a Fobes San Francisco CF+ that's had the slightest bit of modification to it by a Mr. John Reilly (known by some as the mouthpiece doctor, but I call him John).
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2005-05-28 04:42
Dark Tone?? No Problem!!! All you need is......The most expensive mouthpiece available, most expensive ligature, Backun barrel and bell, the HARDEST reed you can find(preferable german cut). It might also help if you put a fat layer of think mouthpiece patches on the mouthpiece. If that does not make it dark enough, try putting a sock in the bell (must kill ALL overtones!!)
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-28 05:07
DAVE wrote:
> Dark Tone?? No Problem!!! All you need is......The most
> expensive mouthpiece available, most expensive ligature, Backun
> barrel and bell, the HARDEST reed you can find(preferable
> german cut). It might also help if you put a fat layer of
> think mouthpiece patches on the mouthpiece. If that does not
> make it dark enough, try putting a sock in the bell (must kill
> ALL overtones!!)
That's how I got through undergrad juries. Tone was worth 60%.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-05-29 19:17
I also like a dark tone, but don't want to sacrifice power. I use a Greg Smith Kaspar Cicero 13 made from Grenadilla wood. Contact Greg to play-test some from him. Very nice.
I also have played some of Walter Grabner's and he's got some great stuff. Expert craftsman.
Kaspars are great if you can find one. Big and dark sound.
Reed strength and ligature are also an important factor--as is the tuning barrel and instrument combination. I use a BG Super Revelation ligature and a Chadash barrel.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-30 13:02
Ralph Strouf - his son was my college roommate. Jeff kept a picture of Goodman and his dad in his Clarinet Case.
A great player can make most any mouthpiece sound identical. It's then a matter of how hard he has to work to get the end result.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-05-31 14:59
The mouthpiece that any great player used might be useless to you. The selection of a mouthpiece is as individual as trying on a pair of shoes. A mouthpiece that feels, and sounds great for one person may only be average for another.
The other thing that people are not aware of is the fit or match between your clarinet and your mouthpiece.
I had an experience a few years ago, when I was working with " a famous clarinet professor" and his students. The professor tried all the mouthpieces first - on his own clarinet. Liked some, passed on others. Later a student of his was trying one of the mouthpieces that to him sounded "only so-so". She made it sound beautiful.
He tried her clarinet, with the mouthpiece and reproduced the "wonderful sound". He then tried the mouthpiece on his own clarinet, and we were back to "so-so".
Just proves that many times we are matching the mouthpiece to the clarinet as much as we are to the player.
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Author: DareWreck8402
Date: 2005-06-02 00:47
thanks for the sarchasm, I find it REALLY helpful. Next time, take into account the old phrase: "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all".....thanks though
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-06-02 01:43
DareWreck... Who was sarcastic to you? I just read all the posts and I didn't catch any of that! I see your new to this forum, here we are all very civil, unlike other forums on the net.
Fred
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