 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-05-26 12:06
I own the Bb Cordier reed trimmer. It cuts cleanly but I don't like the cut profile. The finished cut is too rounded at the corners. I just got done reading through the search results for "reed trimmer" and find that apparently the cut profile for this trimmer varies widely from sample to sample. I've been considering getting a soprano or alto sax trimmer. My thoughts tell me that the wider blade will leave a consistent radius across the reed. Has anyone experimented with this? Is the soprano trimmer wide enough for this or is the alto trimmer better?
How about the Rigotti trimmer? Is the cut profile different for the Rigotti. It seems that most people consider the Cordier superior to the Rigotti. What is it that is not liked about the Rigotti.
Thanks,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-05-26 13:09
Matt - I know nothing about the Rigotti, unless my "no-name" trimmer is one. I have Cordiers, Bb cl, an alto and a tenor sax? [not labelled as such], and use them only on those reeds. I [believe I] often take off a very small cut in case I have a poor location of the reed tip [or butt] so I can "re-do" without "over-hardening" and get a well-shaped tip. Just thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-05-26 15:05
Matt -
The Cordier trimmers do in fact vary widely. What I do is move the butt of the reed off to the side, which moves the middle of the tip into a more curved area of the cutter. It's inconvenient, but no other reed trimmer clips as cleanly or reliably,
You could easily use an alto sax model, but that will leave the corners too high and sharp-pointed, so you'll have to do the rotation-and-trim on that, too.
After clipping, I use a Revlon Diamond Dust nail file to just touch the corners to ease the sharp point.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-05-26 16:37
Ken:
Thanks for the pointer. I have tried the technique and it does seem to work. I agree it's inconvenient.
I think I'll find a sax player with a Cordier who will let me try it out. I think it could be a good solution.
Thanks again,
Matt
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kel
Date: 2005-05-26 19:15
To avoid the cost of a stable of reed trimmers (I play alto, tenor, bari and soprano saxes, plus clarinet), I bought a Runyon reed burning tool. It's a flat piece of metal with outlines for clarinet and the various sax reeds and a strip of fine sandpaper. You hold the reed on the metal in the proper position and burn the unwanted tip off. It works well, assuming you position the reed carefully, and a burned tip plays as well as a clipped tip... some say better. I understand the real old-timers carried coins of the proper size.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-05-26 19:56
Kel -
Burning is a well-known method. I've seen advice to squeeze the tip between two quarters, or trace the reed tip twice onto sheet metal and cut two pieces, for above and below the tip.
I've tried it and found that the soft material between the veins burned faster than the veins, leaving a jagged edge and a fuzzy feel when I tongued. YRMV.
Kalmen Opperman told me that when he learned to make reeds, his teacher wouldn't let him use a trimmer and forced him to shape the tip on the blank before beginning to cut the vamp. That certainly forces you to concentrate, since the slightest slip means you have to throw the reed away. I've seen Kal start with a blank and make a wonderful finished reed (using only a knife) in under a minute.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-05-26 20:34
Many years ago as an undergrad I had the best trimmer . It did not round the corners of the reed but gave a perfect cut that matched the original. I have not seen a reed trimmer like it in many years.
It was made of a black metal surrounding frame, a dark blue metal blade and a silver lever that was attacked to a somewhat flat sided silver metal bar that when the lever was turned the bar moved the blade. There was a platform for the butt of the reed but no clamp. You held the reed in place with a thumb.
I do not remember the name of the maker but perhaps someone will reconize the trimmer form my description and who made it. I do remember it ran around 5 bucks.
I do not care for the shape of the corners either after a cordier trim.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2005-05-27 02:09
>Kalmen Opperman told me that when he learned to make reeds, his teacher >wouldn't let him use a trimmer and forced him to shape the tip on the blank >before beginning to cut the vamp. That certainly forces you to concentrate, >since the slightest slip means you have to throw the reed away. I've seen Kal >start with a blank and make a wonderful finished reed (using only a knife) in >under a minute.
Now this is a real man!!
I shape the tips of my hand made reeds with a piece of sanpaper. I do it after I've made the reed, not before. Once you get the hang of it, it goes pretty quickly, and you can accurately match the curve of the tip rail of your mouthpiece. You can "trim" a reed this way as well.
Although I caused a firestorm on KLARINET when I said it, I'll say it again - every reed trimmer I've ever used crushed the tip of the reed, and changed the playing characteristics of the reed. So I gave up on reed trimmers. The Vandoren one works pretty well, but is very pricey, especially compared with the old sandpaper that I now use!
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-05-27 14:07
David -
It's great to have you on the board. (For those who don't know, he is the retired principal clarinetist of the Richmond Symphony and one of the best "explainers" around.)
When you begin, do you round the tip of the unprofiled blank approximately to its final shape, cut the vamp and then sand the tip to its final shape?
If you don't, then after cutting the vamp, the tip area is in a straight line across. Do you sand off the entire excess area with sandpaper, or do you cut it roughly to shape with a knife (or perhaps a razor blade or Exacto knife) and then finish the tip shape with the sandpaper?
Or something else?
Also, what grit of sandpaper do you use? And is it open-coat (light tan or orange-red) or closed-coat (black)?
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-05-27 14:41
Matt,
I have also encountered this issue with the Cordier reed trimmer and I agree that the tip profile is too round.
Generally I trim reeds that have become too soft for my closed mouthpiece. Such reeds are usually well on the path of dying anyway. So I begrudgingly tolerate the curved profile of clipped the reed tip for the remaining two or three weeks left for the reed. Although I would much prefer a reed tip profile that more closely matches my mouthpiece.
Your assumption a tenor sax would have less of an arc makes sense. Please let us know if you are successful with this approach to let us know so we can use it ourselves. I'm especially curious as to the brand and size of the reed clipper,
Thanks,
Ron Jr.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-05 06:24
While shopping on line for a reed trimmer I came across this thread. The commemts on reed crafting were fascinating. Using a Canadian two dollar coin as a guide I was able to reshape a damaged reed end in just seconds with an emory board. Using toe nail clippers and sandpaper usually takes me about 15 minutes. Next I tried burning with the reed between two 2 dollar coins. Using a bic lighter the burning was slower than I expected but it did produce an even edge. The reed played with a mellow tone . The only drawback with the burned tip is that it is a bit hard to align the reed on the mouthpiece due to the black on black lack of contrast.
In light of these successes I am going to retire the toe nail clippers and abandon the search for a reed trimmer.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2018-12-05 18:08
When I made my own reeds using the Reed- du-al, Sp?, for about 15-20 years many years ago I would not clip the reed until after I played on it for several days while breaking it in slowly with the tip still a straight line, from a few seconds to several minutes a day for 4-5 days. Then I would clip it and finish it off shaping the tip to my likeness using very fine wet-dry sand paper and or a very find nail file that I found someplace.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-05 22:37
I have never thought about slowly breaking in new or newly reformed reeds. A few days ago I bought a Yamaha YCL 24 that came with 12 damaged Vandoren 3 reeds. That gives me an opportunity to do a lot of experimental burning and shaping.These 12 reeds were all squared on the end with 3/16 rounded corners. I duplicated the method this morning on one of those reeds. At first I thought it probably would not be playable. In fact it produced a very broad deep centered tone from top to bottom. I found it easy to brighten or darken notes at will with that reed. This afternoon I plan to extensively test it against burned and regular reeds. For the moment both squared and burned look very promising.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-12-06 07:42
Hi Windy Dreamer.
When you say “burning a reed “ are you referring to holding the reed tip over a coin and applying a flame to burn off material , creating a reed with a curved tip?
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-06 08:22
The reed is burned by pressing it between two coins the same size and then burning away the section of tip sticking out between them. My first attempt was quite frustating due to difficulty keeping the coins and reed aligned. My second and third attempt went well using 2 quarters.After burning away 3/8 inch on one I ground back the upper ramp on a bench sander. After burning 1/8 inch on another I reshaped the ramp with a finger nail emory board and 600 grit wet-dry sandpaper.
New sounds are always exciting to me. Throughout the day I have been alternating between burnt, filed over top of coin, squared end and new untouched reeds. The differences between them are as extreme as the differences between clarinets. Tomorrow I hope to make a few burning jigs out of scrap metal. One square ended and one rounded
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-12-06 11:19
My first clarinet teacher used to shape reeds between two British halfpenny (I think) coins with a cigarette lighter.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-06 18:42
In response to Arnoldstang
I just tried burning one reed holding the reed against a single quarter.It turned out great , possibly burning faster than between two quarters. I thought it would burn past the edge of the quarter but it did not.In future I will stick with the single quarter method.This reed was very stiff so I spent about two minutes extending the ramp with an emory board.I often do that to new reeds as well.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bill28099
Date: 2018-12-07 02:53
My teacher in the 50s used one quarter and a zippo.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-12-08 15:35
The last mention I’ve encountered of burning off the tip of a reed was by famous jazz sax player Art Pepper. I inclined to think this method was used because no reed trimmer was available. Just one coin was used in the process.
Freelance woodwind performer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-08 18:03
While my first burned reeds turned out well I am sure there is an art to be mastered. I wonder how results could be altered by factors such as moisture, angle of reed toward flame , which part of flame to use and distance of flame center to tip.
I have examined all types of reeds mentioned above with a 15 X jewelers loop. Some new reeds look like the ends were crudely torn off while others look crushed and others appear finely cut. Hand sanded on a quarters edge are sometimes finer than factory cut and sometimes cruder. Burnt tips have no strands sticking out while all others do. Some burnt tips have a smooth edge while others look ragged. The burnt tips look like they have lacquered ends. Bamboo does contain natural lacquers. Either they do not burn as well as the fiber or they are drawn towards the reed end by heat.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2018-12-09 03:10
Windy Dreamer wrote:
> While my first burned reeds turned out well I am sure there is
> an art to be mastered. I wonder how results could be altered by
> factors such as moisture, angle of reed toward flame , which
> part of flame to use and distance of flame center to
New definition in Wikipedia of "overthinking a simple concept".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2018-12-09 03:29
Windy Dreamer,
In your posts above, you have elevated a 13 year old thread and in your five posts have gotten quite a ways off topic. What do your comments have to do with a Cordier reed trimmer which is the topic of the thread?
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-09 04:13
The previous posters Kel, David Niethamer and Ken Shaw had already introduced the alternatives to reed clippers. I revived the thread because it was something I hoped to explore. I was also hoping other alternatives might be brought forward. In light of the above I have abandoned my search for a clipper and embraced the coin sanding and burning alternatives.
Having no skill as a carver I will not be exploring the one minute hand carved reed practices of Kalvin Opperman.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
