 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: steve
Date: 2000-02-28 13:48
I heard something interesting this weekend....the Philharmonica Hungarica came to my home town, and I got two extreme examples of ww sectional playing....one piece was the Chopin piano cto 2....the piano was _{out of tune with itself_!, and the ww section sounded like a cat fight trying to compensate with itself and with the piano....then they played Beethoven 7, and had one of the most glorious ww sectional sounds I've heard since I left cleveland....especially in bsn, ob, fl and french horn....perfect intonation, beautifully together phrasing and shading...guess it shows even consumate pros can be thrown off when all the elements of a performance don't come together....if these guys come to your home town, check them out!!!
s.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2000-02-28 14:44
Just a reflection.
In a woodwind-section, at least in our orchestra, we are striving for pure intonation. This means the old rules about flat major thirds, sharp minor thirds and sharp fifth. All according to where the notes are in the harmonic series. This means that you have to develop a good ear for where your own note is in a specific chord. I can't remember the exact numbers in cents, but it is something like: 13 cents flat v. sharp for the thirds, 5 cents sharp for the fifth and what I do remember is 27 (twenty-seven) cents flat for the seventh. More than a quarter-tone flat or it isn't in tune. Something to think about for all ensembles. This means the differences from equal temperament. Since modern Grand pianos always are tuned in equal temperament this creates problems. We have decided to go with the piano when playing piano-concertos meaning equal temperament since focus is on the piano. When the piano has rests we switch to pure intonation again. I can imagine that it's a disaster if the piano isn't in tune with itself though.
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-02-28 23:09
Alphie wrote:
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Just a reflection.
In a woodwind-section, at least in our orchestra, we are striving for pure intonation. This means the old rules about flat major thirds, sharp minor thirds and sharp fifth ... I can't remember the exact numbers in cents, but it is something like: 13 cents flat v. sharp for the thirds, 5 cents sharp for the fifth and what I do remember is 27 (twenty-seven) cents flat for the seventh... More than a quarter-tone flat or it isn't in tune...
Hi Alphie, you lost me. I wasn't a music major so I don't know what "cents" mean. Anyone want to help me out? Michael
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-02-28 23:45
When you look at a tuner, you see the line that goes back and forth, right? Well, when it's in the middle, it is at zero cents. As you go further to the left or right you are more out of tune and more cents off. I am a music major, but don't know the reason why they call these cents.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-02-29 01:01
The distance between two semi-tones (say Bb and B) is 100 units. Since this is the same as the number of cents in a dollar, it was arbitrarily given the name cents. There was no special reason.
For example, if you are 50 cents off pitch, you are halfway between two semi-tones and badly out of tune.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-02-29 03:46
Jerry K. wrote:
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Ah . . . how many cents in a hertz, say from A-440 to A-441??
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Its not consistent. It depends on what the frequency of the pitches are. The number of hertz difference between Ab and A is slightly different than the number of hertz between A and A#.
If I recall correctly, for A =440, then Bb = 466 (I'm not one hundred percent positive on the exact frequency for Bb but this is close enough for the following examples). So here 100 cents = 26 hertz. Thus 1 hertz is about 3.8 cents on your meter.
However lets do this for the next octave up. The A would be 880 hertz and the Bb would be 932 hertz. So 100 cents = 52 hertz. Thus 1 hertz would be about 1.9 cents on your meter.
Now lets take one octave lower. The A would be 220 hertz and the Bb would be 233 hertz. In this range then 100 cents = 13 hertz. This yields a result of 1 hertz registering as about 7.6 cents on your meter.
In other words, hertz is an absolute measure of frequency while cents is a relative difference between neighboring half steps.
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-02-29 03:54
Kim, Dee, thanks for the information. Chemistry
was a much simpler major! Michael
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2000-02-29 09:06
I have nothing more to add to the discussion since Dee gave a quite comprehensive explanation as far as I can judge.
What is quite remarkable though is that so many performing musicians are so unaware of these simple rules for intonation. Very often it's just pure luck that they play in tune at all. After some years of extensive chambermusic playing you develop a sixth sense for intonation anyway, but you get there much quicker if you know the theory behind it. This is pure physics and nothing can change that.
Try to build a chord with some friends. Let's say a C-major7 chord. Start with a confident C and don't move. Everybody else should tune to this C. Add the 5th, G, and aim a little sharp, add the 3rd, E, and aim very flat, than add the 7th, Bb, and aim flatter than you can dream of.
When everything is in tune, stop, remember what you had to do, than, play the chord together. It should sound pretty much like an in tune C7-chord.
A C-minor chord works the same way, only the minor third, Eb, has to be aimed very sharp.
These simple rules are very handy to keep in mind every time you are facing intonation problems in ensemble-playing.
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Author: paul
Date: 2000-02-29 18:28
In other words, you have to "bend" the notes either up (sharp) or down (flat) to get them to fit the chord properly. Chords are complex animals. A perfectly tuned piano, with each note set exactly to the tuning meter is an example of scratching a chalkboard for chord intonation. It just sounds absolutely terrible for almost any chord you make. The notes are too perfect to fit together for a pleasant sound. Ditto for the clarinet and most other musical instruments I can think of. Either by design in the instrument (tuning the strings of the piano, spacing/cutting key holes on a clarinet, etc.) or by playing the instrument out of machine perfect tune (i.e. "bending the notes") can someone get chords to fit together and sound nice.
There is a lot more theory behind this subject, much of which sailed clear over my head when my tutor discussed it with me during my lessons. The main point is that ensemble music is a great challenge to play with correct chord intonation. Each instrument has its own personality. Then, the performers have to account for each other's energy level and help balance/counter natural tendencies.
...and I thought playing a simple duet with my tutor was a challenge! Not even close...
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Author: Meredith H
Date: 2000-03-01 02:34
I despair at ever playing an in tune chord note again! I never thought of music as an exact science and to tell the truth it is kind of like taking the fun out of it. 5 cents sharps, 3 cents flat, heaven help us poor amateurs blowing away in our community bands. I don't know half of this stuff, as I am sure neither do the rest of the people in my band but we somehowamnage to make a rather nice, tuneful sound none-the-less. Can we all be doing the right thing by pure chance?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-03-01 02:37
Meredith H wrote:
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I despair at ever playing an in tune chord note again! I never thought of music as an exact science and to tell the truth it is kind of like taking the fun out of it. 5 cents sharps, 3 cents flat, heaven help us poor amateurs blowing away in our community bands. I don't know half of this stuff, as I am sure neither do the rest of the people in my band but we somehowamnage to make a rather nice, tuneful sound none-the-less. Can we all be doing the right thing by pure chance?
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It's hardly by chance. The ear is a wondrous and marvelous device, properly used, to enable us to all play happily and tunefully together. It is very user friendly, no math required.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-03-01 03:00
Dee - I havent been able to find it yet in my physics books, but isn't the next half-tone above, mathematically, the frequency times the 12th root of 2? This, if true, might help explain why a few cents [actually percentage] out of tune is very bad for low notes, and may not be greatly noticeable for very high notes. I'm not sure I have a very good grasp of this, will look for help tomorrow!!!
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-03-01 04:20
Don Berger wrote:
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Dee - I havent been able to find it yet in my physics books, but isn't the next half-tone above, mathematically, the frequency times the 12th root of 2? This, if true, might help explain why a few cents [actually percentage] out of tune is very bad for low notes, and may not be greatly noticeable for very high notes. I'm not sure I have a very good grasp of this, will look for help tomorrow!!!
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Yup the frequency of each higher semi-tone is indeed the frequency of the note below it times the 12th root of 2. I checked out the math after reading your post. So the Bb estimate that I used in my examples was correct. Of course we *are* talking about the even-tempered scale here. And for these discussions, we are referring to concert pitch. A few hertz out of tune on the low notes represents a higher percentage (cents) than a few hertz on the high notes. And it is the few hertz out of tune that is more noticeable at low frequencies (i.e. low notes) than at high frequencies. So if you are 10 herz off for the A represented by 220 hertz, you are indeed very far out of tune. On the other hand, if you go to the A represented by 1760, a difference of 10 hertz would be less noticeable and grating (except of course for the fact that pitches this high can sometimes be a little irritating anyway).
At a frequency for A of 1760 hertz, the Bb becomes 1865 hertz. So the difference between A and Bb is 105 hertz. So here 1 hertz is on 0.95 cent.
(If you can't tell, I aced all my math classes. I loved playing with numbers and numerical relationships.)
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-03-01 11:12
I love this discussion about tones and frequencies etc.
I think it is very interesting even if way over my head.
I guess for all of us just hoping to hit the right keys on the clarinet this is just an academic discussion, but I'm glad someone out there (Dee, Don) knows what all this means.
Michael
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Author: Roger Merriam
Date: 2000-03-01 11:46
I hear the phrase tempered tuning a lot. Does this refer to the altering of pitch per the chord (as per the above discussion---which was outstanding and most instructive) as opposed to tuning on a piano which is not chordal? However, I have observed piano tuners playing cords to make sure things are in tune.
What is tempered tuning?
What is the alternative?
How is a piano tuned?
I am grateful for this topic because it gives me a chance to ask questions on issues that I thought I might know the answer but felt too embarassed to ask
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-03-01 14:12
Dee and I thank you above-posters for your kind comments, we engineers have prob. had a somewhat greater exposure to math etc, and therefore look for the fundemental reasons, nuff said there. A quick look into my paperback "Horns,Strings, and Harmony" by THE Arthur H Benade tells me I had better read pgs 127-9 Temperaments, including "even-temp." [not ill-temp.]as pianos are tuned. I should have taken musical theory, no opportunity!! Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-03-01 15:42
I dont wish to pursue temperaments ad nauseum, but for those who wish to calculate tonal frequencies [hertz, cycles per sec. to me], the 12th root of 2 [per Benade, who refers to Helmholtz and Bach!!] is 1.0595, try that on your calc.! Using it, multiplying the desired frequency [A=440] by 1.0595, gives Bb as 466.18. I also vaguely remember that applying this technique up- and down-scale tells us, as Paul indicated, that, p. e., C# and Db are different, and that is the reason for "even-temperament". Music Majors, please help me. A sidelight; if PDQ Bach has not written "Variations on an Illtempered Clavier" , he should get busy!! Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-03-02 15:02
I neglected to clearly say above that the Even Tempered scale is produced by use of the 12th-root-of-2 mathematics, which obviously divides the octave into 12 evenly spaced semi-tones [to simplify tuning of keyboard inst's]. It seems to me that, what I think of as "chordal tuning" [Benade and Larry Guy's fine booklet,Intonation----, available from Gary Van Cott, both discuss this], and adjusting pitch because of the cl itself, require much "flexibility" of the player him-her self. I feel I am "out of my depth" on this entire subject, HELP! Don
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