 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-11 17:10
Hello everyone, please share your thoughts.
What is your opinion of the Leblanc low C bass clarinet? How does it compare with Buffet and Selmer?
I don't know of any soloists or orchestral players who play on it.
Thanks.
Willy
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-05-11 17:51
Willy -
There may be a few orchestral bass clarinetists who play a Leblanc, but I don't know of any. Certainly you should try one, but most people find there's more color and power in a Selmer or Buffet.
Ed Palanker in the Baltimore Symphony sounds great on a low C Yamaha, so you should also put that on your list of instruments to try.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-11 18:43
Thank you Ken. Prior to my post I searched through the archives but found relatively little info on the Leblanc compared to Buffet and Selmer. Maybe that in itself is indicative of something?
One post said that Leblanc hasn't improved/upgraded/redesigned its line of harmony clarinet since the 70s. Is this true?
My Leblanc brochure shows that the neck doesn't have a tuning sleeve, and the bottom joint consists of acutally 2 joints, joined by a metal sleeve. Whereas Buffet and Selmer have an one-piece bottom joint.
Can anyone confirm?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-11 19:49
BassettHorn, I believe you are correct about the design of the Leblanc low-C basses. I don't think Leblanc has sunk a penny of development cost into these instruments for close to 50 years ---- what does that tell you about their committment to the product? And would you want to buy it?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-05-11 20:53
This is about the first chance [and thread] I've had to report on my trial of the Ridenour low C bass. which for the quoted price of $2200, does deserve consideration/competition with the very expensive [but excellent Selmer, and its Buffet competitor{dont know much about it}] !! I quickly found that my hands were a bit small to play the R , the reaches for the lower keys will take some getting used to. I did like the "doubled" low D touches, for rt and lft L F's and without resort to tuner, thot it was well in tune. Because of inter-locked lower keying, some notes required a lot of finger pressure, possibly break-in and spring-tension adjustments with practice would help. All in All, worthy of consideration !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-11 23:30
I realize it's egotistical to quote myself, but in this case I'm just being lazy...a few days ago I wrote this on the SaxOnTheWeb forum as a followup to my rather glowing initial report on the Ridenour low-C bass clarinet --- so please indulge me.....
"Since I started this thread (on an excessively positive note, as it turned out) I'd like to add my follow-up. This past winter I played my Ridenour low-C bass in two wind ensemble concerts which I recorded, and these recordings confirmed my misgivings about my sound on this horn. I find the sound of the Ridenour to be thin and lacking in depth, just like the Yamaha bass of which it is a (rather blatant, IMHO) copy. Also, the keywork design is rather poor, especially the cluster of spatulas for the 'extended-range' notes which I found to be uncomfortable to the point of painful. I sold my Ridenour back in December and frankly, I'm glad it's gone. My opinion (and that's all it is, an opinion) is that the instrument is the answer to a question that really didn't need to be asked: it is indeed, as Mr. Ridenour intended it to be, an affordable low-C bass clarinet for high schools. But I would argue that nobody in high school needs a low-C bass anyway, and I stand by that argument. Mr. Ridenour's low-C bass, I feel, is inadequate for the players who really need it --- those who play in symphony orchestras or perform professionally as soloists or chamber musicians."
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-12 00:02
I've been lurking here a while but not posted - but need to jump in here..
I used to have a wonderful Low C Bass ... it was a Hammerschmidt Boehm system Low C with a straight bell (at 5'4" I had to sit on a 5" cushion to play it because it was tall). German mouthpiece. Incredible sound (solid and penetrating - no spreading or buzzy sound as many basses have - think of how Karl Leister sounds in the first part of the 3rd movement of the Saint-Saens Sonata, but down an octave). I found the keys easy to play, the extension keys were on the right thumb and I got around on them pretty well. Worked for everything from Bach cello sonatas to Schoenberg chamber music to Wagner and Strauss full-blown orchestral pieces - I even played it in Rite of Spring where there is that overlapping lick between 2 bass clarinets and it worked there without sounding like 2 different instruments even though the other instrument was one of the conventional makes (Selmer, I think - we did have to work at matching tones). This instrument was a prototype I bought from a visiting professor from Austria, and may not have been duplicated - it might be the only one of its kind (I can't find any information about a model like this on-line).
Foolishly, I sold it for peanuts to a music store in the early 90's when I thought I was done playing for good. Now I've started back and I find myself craving that instrument - I loved it!
I hope it's out there being played, somewhere - has anyone seen it?
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-05-12 06:49
Lol, would it be this one?
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~bswhite/clarinets/hammerschmidt.jpg
Can't remember where I found that pic.
--CG
Post Edited (2005-05-12 06:49)
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-12 14:41
Wow! That's my old bass! Or, its identical twin ... please, wrack your brain and remember where you found the picture ... Thanks!!!!!
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-12 15:10
Re: the Hammerschmidt - OK, I did more searching and learned it was up on E-Bay in 1998, that's probably where you got the pic. So - who bought it? E-Bay doesn't seem to keep archives of past sales.
--------------
Sorry for the diversion, back to the thread in progress ... sorry, I know nothing about LeBlanc bass clarinets ...
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-12 15:41
Thank you all for the interesting Hammerschmidt excursion. Great looking bass!
The Canadian clarinet maker Steve Fox is now making German bore Bb bass clarinet (to low Eb or C), and French bore bass clarinet in A (to low Eb, and possibly C). Check out the website:
www.sfoxclarinets.com
The horns are equipped with downward pointing wooden bells similar to the Hammerschmidt.
You are going to need a taller chair to accommodate the length of low C coupled with this bell....
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-12 16:21
Looked at the Steve Fox site - appears that these instruments aren't in production yet. In my experience, the narrow bore and straight bell really helped with bass clarinet "issues" as he mentions on his site. I actually felt like my bass clarinet playing was better than my Bb (Buffet R-13) playing in terms of intonation and consistency of tone once I got the Hammerschmidt. The German mouthpiece was a pain, though, because pre-internet I had no clue you could purchase German cut reeds, so I had to make them (not a skill that came naturally to me).
I see Steve Fox also has planned a bass clarinet in "A" - is there much literature for that? It's been a long time since I played bass (~25 years), but I don't recall ever having to transpose a part for Bass Clarinet in A to play on my Bb in the orchestral literature I played or studied.
On the height, yeah, my mom made me a cushion with styrofoam in the middle (light weight and didn't compress much) and a shoulder strap for easy carrying. One of my most embarassing moments was when I did a fairly major orchestra audition and walked out on stage without the cushion! I couldn't play without it so I had to delay the audition to go back to the warm-up room and get it. I was way too flustered to play well after that.
I suppose a short stool like string bass players use might be a better option than a cushion.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-12 17:42
Sirene wrote:
> Looked at the Steve Fox site - appears that these instruments
> aren't in production yet.
There's no "production" per se; Steve is a custom builder, with a wait time for each clarinet. He's started creating 2 new bass clarinets - that's as many as he can handle!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-12 17:54
Sirene wrote:
> a bass clarinet in "A" - is there much literature for that?
> I don't recall ever having to transpose a part for
> Bass Clarinet in A to play on my Bb in the orchestral
> literature I played or studied.
I guess you haven't played any Mahler, Strauss, Wagner or Ravel.![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-05-12 18:28
I just wanted to way in here on the subject. I own a Model 430S (Low c), which Leblanc markets as it's professional horn. I've had it for about 8 years and had resonators fitted onto the lower joint and a pad or two on the upper joint by Peter Grenier, who wrote an article about this retrofit several years ago in "The Clarinet". Of course the horn was good before, but the work really did improve the performance as Peter claimed it would. I think the new Selmer Privilege BC has resonators too! I have not ever tried the professional Selmer or Buffet BCs, but have heard them on an occasion or two. Frankly, I can do as much and sound as good on my Leblanc as what I've heard from those brands. Of course I know the musician can make a difference, and that's my point, having played BC and the Contra(s) for almost 50 years as an amateur. I'm not a repair technician or acoustic expert, but I know what sounds good and plays well. And my Leblanc does!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-12 19:02
LCL, by 'resonators' do you mean pads with resonators (plastic or metal discs riveted to the center of the pad)? If so, my experience with repadding many saxophones and bass clarinets, with both resonator and plain pads, is that they make little or no audible difference in the sound of the instrument --- the one real advantage I've found with these devices is that they keep the center of the pad from sagging (on the larger pads). I suspect that in your case, other things done by Mr. Grenier were the cause of the bulk of the improvements you noted.
Since you haven't tried the two most prevalent brands of low-C bass clarinet, your observations are interesting but not of too much help to someone considering purchasing a Leblanc or one of its competitors.
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-05-12 20:23
David,
So nice to have a response from you, since I have followed your input here for quite a while and consider you a very respected resource-more learned than I. I likely did not clearly make my point. I just find that many seem to be down on the Leblanc BCs, because it is perceived to be inferior for a number of reasons stated above. Perhaps you are indeed correct, that if I tried a Selmer or Buffet, I might be surprised at how much better they are, but the Leblanc I have is great, in my humble opinion, and I guess that's what matters most. Also I think Clark Fobes, once upon a time, reviewed the Leblanc BCs in "The Clarinet" and pointed out many good features, but several that needed attention too.
Nevertheless the resonators were stainless domed, and no Mr. Grenier made no other modifications that he told me about. If you would like, I'll check this board tonight from my home computer and send you a scaned copy of his article and Clark Fobe's too, if you've would like.
Best regards,
LCL, and the last L stands for LeBlanc
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-12 20:55
Hello LCL, I am interested to read the articles by Grenier and Fobe. Can you email them to me? Thanks. Willy
bassethornmusic@hotmail.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-12 20:58
LCL, I wasn't trying to discount your observations --- with any instrument (as with mouthpieces) a 'superior' design doesn't guarantee superior playing performance in every case, nor does a design which (on paper) is 'inferior' preclude certain examples of that design from playing well. For example, I once reported having played the Leblanc Esprit bass clarinet of another BB poster --- his instrument is of the same 'inferior' design as other Leblanc/Noblet/Vito basses, but this particular instrument was a superb player, one of the best of any brand or model I've tried. Conversely, the older Selmer basses have a very fine reputation but I've played literally dozens of "dog" Selmer bass clarinets. It all boils down to percentages --- just as with mouthpieces --- the better brands will have a higher percentages of 'goods' and 'greats', whereas the lesser brands will have a higher percentage of mediocre or poor products -- that's all I meant.
I've read Clark Fobes article, and while I have tremendous respect for Mr. Fobes and his products I didn't agree with some of his statements -- so what? Opinions are like, well, you know...........
![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-05-12 23:26
Not much literature for bass in A?!? Wouldn't it figure that the FIRST year I get to play bass clarinet with ur orchestra, my first solos were in bass clef (which wasn't hard to get used to) and switched to bass in A!! And it continued throughout the year. I hate transposing, cuz I suck at it. But I guess it's better than buying a whole bass clarinet lol.
Yeah, Rach, Strauss, and Wagner were my A experiences.
--CG
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-13 05:36
Contragirl,
Hmmm, since I played many things listed as being in A, either we had a transposed version or I transposed at the time - honestly, I don't remember (25 years ago is a long time).
How common is it for bass clarinetists to have both a Bb and an A instrument?
Anyway, thanks for the picture of the Hammerschmidt!!!
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-05-13 07:45
That's the funny part! Not many (if any) people own a bass cl in A! I mean, I think Selmer makes one, but you have to all special order it and stuff and no one wants to really go through the trouble of buying one. lol
I remember where I found the pic of the Hammerschmidt! It was on the Yahoo group for bass clarinets. For all I know, it could be yours!
I emailed Steve Fox about his new bass and your old Hammerschmidt. He wants to know if Hamm. sells it as a straight model or if you had special work done to it to get it like that. The Hamm. website doesn't list a straight model.
I have a thing for Germans... clarinets, that is.
I was thinking I would give you a momento of your lost straight bass, and send you my clarinet with a peg on it.. like a mini Hammerschmidt. Then I realized I really like my clarinet, and it just wouldn't be the same. :P
--CG
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Author: Sirene
Date: 2005-05-13 20:29
The story of the straight bass clarinet ... I think it is probably the only one, but it wasn't custom made for me. I wasn't clever enough to think of that, I was just a lowly undergrad clarinet major who preferred playing bass clarinet to Bb at the time. Roger Salander brought the straight bass to USC in the late 70's when he was a visiting professor from Vienna. He said it was a prototype of an instrument Hammerschmidt was thinking of making, and he was interested in selling it. I didn't care about whether it was unique or what it looked like - I just played it, loved how it sounded, and went deeply into debt to buy it. I didn't really understand how special it was until after I quit playing (due to personal issues), sold it for almost nothing, and now 25 years later have started playing again (on Bb because that's the only instrument I didn't sell). I had actually never even heard of Hammerschmidt before I bought it.
In retrospect I think it was the German bore that won me over more to that instrument than anything, the clarinetist I idolized in high school was Karl Leister and, funny thing, it was hard to sound like him playing a Buffet or Selmer - the Hammerschmidt sound was a lot closer because (I guess) of the narrow bore and German mouthpiece.
If I can save up enough, I'll look into one of Steve Fox's instruments, looks like they might be close to the one that got away. Of course, I'm barely starting back to playing with few prospects for performing so it'd be hard to justify the expense right now.
So do you have a Bb with a peg? What is it, a really long peg as support for the instrument? I could probably use one of those! I'm having major right thumb issues as I try to ramp up my practice time. Well, that and a bloody bottom lip.... I keep thinking I can't trash my right thumb too much in case I ever locate the straight bass - I'll need right thumb dexterity for the low notes. Anyway, that would be a topic for a different thread.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-05-14 01:42
hehe, I was just kidding about the clarinet with a peg. That would be interesting though. I have seen alto clarinets with pegs though, as well as basset clarinets and basset horns. I have seen a lot of people use neck straps, I think that a peg would be pretty cool. lol
Thanks for the info on the Hamm. It's very interesting!
--CG
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-14 01:54
Last year at a demostration show I had the chance to try the Fox basset horn in F. It was his medium bore model; he was yet developing his narrow bore model at the time.
It was to be played with a German mouthpiece. Fox handed me a reed that he must have specially prepared, and a metal ligature. It played fine. When I tried it with my Vandoren 5RV, I couldn't make a note out of it! It was horrible, I was surprised to see the utter incompatibility.
It had a curved wooden barrel, clarinet-like bell, and 3 thumb keys. A peg helped support the instrument.
The workmanship was superb. The key is to communicate with him fully what your expectations are. He will build it to your full satisfaction within reasons.
I am anxious to see a photo of his bass clarinet.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-05-14 02:38
Someone said <<My opinion (and that's all it is, an opinion) is that the instrument is the answer to a question that really didn't need to be asked: it is indeed, as Mr. Ridenour intended it to be, an affordable low-C bass clarinet for high schools. But I would argue that nobody in high school needs a low-C bass anyway>>
I have several high school aged bass clarinet students. Several times they have brought in band music that required notes below low Eb. These notes ARE creeping into the band repertoire.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class clarinet mouthpieces
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-05-14 13:18
You are right, Walt G, I'm seeing some low D's "sprinkled" into concert band BC parts, partic. those that are re-orchestrated from symp. music, case in point, Gershwin's Cuban Raphsody, had a number [prob from the cello's bottom note], also Ed Huckaby, an OK composer, conducts us on occasion, such as playing his "Legend of the Ida Glenn" et al. Often the D's are also written in for bassoon/bari-sax [low A] so an octave up doesn't hurt. If I can loose-lip an Eb, or use a 6-8" tapered tube temporarily, I can cover them. Its still hard to justify a low C BC, even Tom R's good HR plastic. Havent seen any C#'s or C's lately ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-16 22:03
Walter and Don,
Just because the low C, C# and D occasionally appear in modern band literature (as indeed they do) doesn't mean they are NEEDED -- at least not needed enough (in my humble and worthless opinion) to justify the expense, complexity, size, weight, and awkwardness of a low-C instrument. I'm adamant on this -- I've been playing in numerous concert bands and community orchestras for almost 30 years now, and I've only NEEDED the extended notes a total of TWICE in concert bands (neither of those instances while I was a student) and maybe FOUR times in orchestras. I'm sorry, but unless your kid is rich, tall, and strong and you have a repair tech on your payroll, forget the low-C bass clarinet and settle for the 'shorty' bass. Just my two cents' worth.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-05-16 22:41
Rite as reign, Dave, In my "age of nostalgia" I frequently get a case of "what if's", where my B W restores me to the present, asking "how much" and ?is it worth it?. Case in point, a good-buddy, cl in our comm. band, now has a beautiful Buescher Arist. bari sax for sale, [brother died], it fits my small hands well, no repair needed, am searching for justfication. HELP, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2005-05-17 20:51
On the subject of low C basses: I feel that the low c bass clarinets really have more resonance on the low e, eflat, and better clarity of the third line b and c because of the extended range--these great notes are more centered because the tone holes are on the wood, not on or near the bell. These instruments, particularly the Selmer Paris and Buffet Prestige instruments have great low notes assisted by the extension. On the other side, the critical pitch of the third line b and c are often better on the low eflat instruments. The modern low c instruments have greatly improved third line b and c notes, with the trade-off being that the lowest e and f are a bit flat----. Also, there are many modern orchestral works that require a low c bass and lately, many of the traveling Broadway Shows send out information to conrtactors that the bass clarinets used on doubling books require low C instruments---Phantom of the Opera, Beauty and the Beast, etc.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-18 16:16
In my experience I haven't found significant differences in the resonance or intonation (in general) of the low E/clarion 'long' B, low Eb and clarion 'long' C between good low-Eb basses and comparable low-C basses. Also, I certainly agree that professional players (which of course includes professional theater musicians) need the low-C capability --- I merely insist that high school students do not.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-05-19 19:22
I have to agree with Dave, I've seen more and more new stuff come out with stuff written for Bass below Eb. I get the feeling that there is some composition textbook out there that simply puts the range of the Bass Clarinet from low Bb to the F 4 octaves + above it (or so).
Other than Gunther Schuler, I haven't seen a lot of work where the composer is yearing for that extra little bit of range on the Bass - but I've seen Schuler write a divisi part for Bb contra. Beyond that, I think I've only seen one or two really necessary Low-C bass parts, and we see a lot of new music in my ensemble.
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