 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: claaaaaarinet!!!!
Date: 2005-05-12 16:10
Does anyone know if the Vancouver Symphony hired someone after Tuesday's principal clarinet audition? If so, who was hired?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-12 19:39
I like Vancouver - gorgeous city!
Post Edited (2005-05-13 02:47)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-05-12 19:50
There was a note on the Klarinet list just now saying that the winner is the woman who is the principal in the Charlotte (NC, I presume) Symphony -- but she didn't know her name, and couldn't find it.
Anyone?
Susan
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-05-12 20:07
I think the VSO should be REQUIRED to hire a CANADIAN given that a lot of its funding comes from goverment grants (taxpayers). These days it almost requires an act of Parliament to hire a public servant who is not a Canadian landed immigrant or citizen, why should the VSO be any different. I'm certain somewhere across this great country there is someone who would do a wonderful job at the VSO or maybe someone who got fed up with the limited job prospects at home and has moved off shore.
If they hire a non Canadian I won't be going to anymore concerts.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-05-12 21:03
For me it would be more important to find the best person for the job, regardless of nationality. If the government gives money to the orchestra, then I would think that they should expect the best possible level of performance in return. To think that an orchestra can achieve this purely by hiring musicians to fill every single position from one country is naive. Surely you wouldn't expect every soloist and conductor of the VSO to be Canadian too?
You are the only one who will lose out by deciding not to attend VSO concerts. You should be happy that you live in a country where the government see classical music as important enough to give funding to it, and thankful that you, a taxpayer, have the opportunity to hear a top class symphony orchestra in your city.
Post Edited (2005-05-12 21:12)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-05-12 21:11
And perhaps all Canadian musicians performing in Canadian government-subsidized orchestras should be required to perform on Canadian-manufactured instruments? (I don't think that between the two of them Steven Fox and Morrie Backun would be able to fill all the orders!)
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Author: Anon
Date: 2005-05-12 21:14
Please remember that most Canadian orchestras hold "national" auditions first. If they don't find someone that meets their standards, they then advertise for "international" candidates.
Frankly, I wish the States would do that too - there are plenty of qualified American musicians and we have to contend with everyone from the start for auditions in our orchestras!
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-05-12 21:29
I agree with you Bill. We have the same problem in Europe. Every evening I stop off to buy a nice Belgian beer or italian wine, french cheese or perhaps a chinese take-away, phone my Polish wife, drive home in my german car, check email on my Dell PC or watch my italian tv where the Swedish captain of the English team is talking about the latest spanish striker. Then I may listen to my japanese music system, help my anglo-polish kids with their italian homework, listen to the eldest play his german trumpet, or make my youngest son do his piano practice that his english-speaking italian teacher has given him, using the British system but from a french book.
Then I go to bed and fall asleep to the strains of 'Rule Britannia'!
Keep the foreigners out!
Steve
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2005-05-12 21:54
I agree with those who would offer opportunities to all humans on a merit basis. However one must understand the Canadians' wish to preserve their cultural integrity in the face of the 10:1 US majority. The "Canadian content" rules have been a very good thing, in my opinion.
But as a cultural phenomenon I regard the classical music world as an international thing (or European, if you take "classical" in another sense). I think Canadians are happy with the international opportunities afforded their own artists, who do quite well in the world arena. It's not as if the intrusion of international players offends ethnic pride ...
John Morton
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Author: spiffy
Date: 2005-05-12 23:59
I believe there is incorrect info in this thread. Jeanette Jonquil won that audition, and she currently plays in Charleston, SC.
Post Edited (2005-05-13 01:53)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-05-13 00:54
Oscar Peterson shouldn 't be allowed to play Jazz! Just Canadian music.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-05-13 01:02
Bill..........
if Canadians should play in a Canadian SO, then is it safe to say you are implying that US based SO's should hire only US citizens, European SO's, hire only Europeans, etc, etc, etc.
That's why they are called open auditions
Is this like Hartt should only accept students residing in CT, Manhattan Sch of Music, only NY residents? I attended both and wasn't a resident of either state. Nor was I a resident of Lousiana when I played in the Lousiana sym
regards
dennis
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-05-13 01:16
This thread could turn very nasty. I'm afraid I vote for the "best person for the job" regardless of nationality - otherwise it's a racist system in my book. UNLESS the country in question has a "only hire nationals" policy. This IS the case in Australia for all but concertmasters, associate concertmasters and sectional principals ... unless otherwise stated in their employment policy.
Also ... bravo to Stevesfo ... couldn't have put it better myself.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2005-05-13 01:25)
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-05-13 01:51
I vote for the "best person for the job" too.
Hans
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Author: vin
Date: 2005-05-13 02:05
It is my understanding that a "CANADIAN ONLY" audition was held and no one was chosen. Better a qualified foriegner than a non-qualified Canadian. Bill- No hockey on, eh?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-13 02:14
Hey "CANADIAN ONLY" guy. Bill Jenkins who used to play Bass in Vancouver won the 2nd Baltimore Sym Clarinet job back in the late 80's.
Should he have "stayed back in good ole Canada" and let an American get the gig?
I don't a thin so..................
The best players should always get the gigs. That keeps the standards very high.
Post Edited (2005-05-13 02:43)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-05-13 02:23
Post Edited (2005-05-13 02:24)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-13 02:23
Jeez, the Charleston, SC. Sym seems to be a pretty great gig to go to the next level with!
(remember Bill Hudgins went from there to Boston). I played with his wife Cathy who was his assistant in Charleston at the Marcellus Scotia Festival.
They told me that the cost of living in S.C. was so unbelievably low that making $20K there was equal to making $80K in Chicago.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-13 02:33
--------------------------------------
anon wrote:
Frankly, I wish the States would do that too - there are plenty of qualified American musicians and we have to contend with everyone from the start for auditions in our orchestras!
-------------------------------------
What gig's have been lost to non-Americans???? I can't think of any which had players win who didn't get trained in the states at least. I would think it's the other way around where the american players are going abroad to get jobs and shutting out other players.
I'm very nationalistic - I think we have the best players and teachers right here in the states. Yes there are of course amazing players all over the world, but more are right here.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-13 02:49
I agree...
American wind players are pretty amazing on the whole. Now I find that European string players have a combination of technical and emotional depth that is hard to match. I prefer pianists with Russian technique...
Now, German brass players...brilliant. I have a friend over in Germany who has been blown away by the live Berlin Phil concerts. He can't believe how amazing the brass and strings are compared to some US orchestra's we have heard live.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-05-13 02:59
DavidBlumberg wrote:
>
> I'm very nationalistic - I think we have the best players and
> teachers right here in the states. Yes there are of course
> amazing players all over the world, but more are right here.
>
If you take into account that there are 300 millions us citizens versus 30 million canadians then there aren't that many good american clarinetists after all. And who is winning all the international competitions, are there only americans? This kind of statement is simpy ridiculous..
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-13 03:13
Number wise - more are here.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-13 03:15
Sylvain wrote:
>
> If you take into account that there are 300 millions us
> citizens versus 30 million canadians then there aren't that
> many good american clarinetists after all. And who is winning
> all the international competitions, are there only americans?
> This kind of statement is simpy ridiculous..
>
Actually, there are plenty of good clarinetists in most places...but it doesn't take just a good clarinetist to get the job done. BTW - how many colleges of music are in the US compared with Canada? I'll take a guess, but I'll say the US has Canada out numbered here. (Boston alone has 2 conservatories, Berkelee, BU, Longy, and a handful of other schools that have orchestra's such as MIT) US schools are filled with a large majority of pretty bad clarinetists, a few pretty darn good ones and a handful of amazing kids. Not to mention all the foreign kids who come over to study in the US. And, for the record...the last winner of the Carl Nielsen in '01 was an American.
The point is, if an American won the job over all the Canadian clarinetists that auditioned, it seems the powers that be in Vancouver found those Canadian clarinetists who auditioned not to be the right fit for their orchestra. That's what it comes down to...
How many American trained clarinetists will land a job with Berlin or Vienna? Its all a matter of taste.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-05-13 03:35
Boy did I stir up a hornets nest. First I wish to state I am dual citizen and for that privilege I get to file a set of tax forms to both Revenue Canada and the IRS. Nothing in my orginal post said one thing about being anti American, I am one too.
Now if the VSO was a private corporation I could care less about the nationality of who they hire. If Immigration Canada/Free Trade Act gives the person a work permit, so be it. However, a large percentage of the VSO's revenue/subsidies/grants come from the federal/provincial/city governments, i.e, my tax dollars. I want my tax dollars to be spent hiring CANADIANS. If the quality suffers a bit so be it, but I'm sure it won't.
I'll bet if the government pulled all the VSO's funding they would find a perfectly qualified Canadian real quick.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-13 03:56
bill28099 wrote:
> Boy did I stir up a hornets nest. First I wish to state I am
> dual citizen and for that privilege I get to file a set of tax
> forms to both Revenue Canada and the IRS. Nothing in my
> orginal post said one thing about being anti American, I am one
> too.
>
> Now if the VSO was a private corporation I could care less
> about the nationality of who they hire. If Immigration
> Canada/Free Trade Act gives the person a work permit, so be it.
> However, a large percentage of the VSO's
> revenue/subsidies/grants come from the federal/provincial/city
> governments, i.e, my tax dollars. I want my tax dollars to be
> spent hiring CANADIANS.
I understand where you are coming from. Just like the US tax dollars supporting illegals healthcare costs while many of its citizens go without.
But - we wont get into that socialist argument.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-13 11:01
bill28099 wrote:
> Now if the VSO was a private corporation I could care less
> about the nationality of who they hire.
I don't know of any completely private orchestra of note anywhere in the world except for Vienna, and essentially they use the fact they're private for exclusionary rather than inclusionary purposes.
Some of my tax dollars go to support our Detroit Symphony Orchestra; I gladly pay anyone from anywhere good enough to work with that group.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-05-13 11:40
stevensfo wrote:
"watch my italian tv where the Swedish captain of the English team"
Your TV is on the blink, old boy. The captain of the English team (I assume you mean soccer) is English. Wouldn't qualify otherwise.
Sven wotsit is the manager/coach, not the captain.
----
What amazes me is that the VSO got permission to hire a non-Canadian. Canada is notorious for being one of the most difficult countries to get a work permit, or even to get into the country at all if there is the slightest suspicion that you might be there to work. Maybe it's easier for US citizens than for Europeans?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-05-13 12:50
FWIW the ONLY non-documentary film directed by Michael Moore is "Canadian Bacon" which was John Candy's last movie.
What does that have to do with clarinet?
Well, it's all abooot the beer.
Waay too much Bob and Tom show in the morning on the way to work.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Sandra F.
Date: 2005-05-13 14:20
What happened to "Music is the Universal Language"? I know of many, many USA musicians who were hired by orchestras all over the world. Let's keep music and musicianship separate from nationalism.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-05-13 15:30
I 'm not anti american and I am not pro canadian either. I just happened to have lived in both countries as a guest and appreciate both cultures.
The vancouver did have a national audition and did not hire anybody so had another international audition and this person got hired. I don't think it is because they did not have sombody satisfactory at the end of the national audition, but to see if there was somebody even better out there. I'm just guessing, though.
I agree with most people that the best person should get the gig, but I also feel for the other 50 auditionees who can get the job done but didn't shine at that audition.
I just happen to disagree that we have the best schools and best players right here in america. If you live in Europe for a little while, you'll realize that Marcellus, Wright, Drucker are not the legends there, you won't even find their recordings. It's Arrignon, Carbonare, Leister, Collins, Prinz and Meyer...
Anyway this debate could go on forever, being a foreigner in the US I always find it hard to hear we have the "best X" in the world. But yes I'll admit it, you do have the best basketball team in the world.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Keith Ferguson
Date: 2005-05-13 15:59
David Peacham - the North American Free Trade Agreement does have an impact and enhances job mobility for those living and working in North America. Canada's traditional approach, which may still apply to those in Europe, is that an employer has to demonstrate an absence or shortage of suitably qualified people in Canada before hiring offshore. But Canada may only be hard to get into if you follow the rules - apparently there are 30,000 people who continue to live in Canada despite deportation orders having been issued, simply because our Immigration Department doesn't know where they are!
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-05-13 16:23
>>Sven wotsit is the manager/coach, not the captain.
Soon to be replaced by Olaf monstermunch!
>>But Canada may only be hard to get into if you follow the rules - apparently there are 30,000 people who continue to live in Canada despite deportation orders having been issued, simply because our Immigration Department doesn't know where they are!
Hmm, sounds familiar!
Steve
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-13 19:30
This has now drifted so far off topic (with a post that's been deleted) that it is now closed.
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