 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-30 14:40
Who came up with this rule for embouchure formation? I never heard of this until I started teaching. No teacher I've ever had has EVER told me to do this, and my sound and tuning are just fine. anyway, my question....
In my teaching, I've always favored the "do what works" philosophy, because I've found that trying to impose an absolute standard on every students doesn't work for many of them (because of physical difference).
I have one 6th grader who plays incredibly flat. Her band director (who from what I've observed doesn't do that great of a job teaching the sixth grade class!) keeps forcing her to "flatten and point" her chin. However, when she does this she always ends up pulling her jaw down playing about a 1/4 step flat! I can get her to make a good sound that's in tune, but it doesn't "look flat or pointed" enough for her band director so he keeps making her change it back to the bad one!
Who came up with this standard and why would a band director insist on something that isn't working? A lot of beginning books mention this on their "embouchure formation" page. I thought the whole purpose of having a private teacher was that we can evaluate each student as an individual and provide them with specific instruction that meets their needs, rather than just being like "do what the book says". This doesn't make sense to me!
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2005-04-30 19:39)
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-04-30 14:49
"However, when she does this she always ends up pulling her jaw down playing about a 1/4 step flat!"
Perhaps the embochoure is working, and the student is dropping their throat as well? Could be many things, not just the embochoure.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-04-30 14:59
Child playing flat?? Try this "trick". While your student is sustaining a long tone (G4, ex) grasp the barrel and gently try moving it from side to side. The students reaction will be to firm up the embouchure--and this usually results in a more "in tune" sound.
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-05-01 01:43
I was taught the flat and pointed chin, but not for intonation. Basically, I had too much of my bottom lip on the reed and it was deadening the sound. By flattening my chin, my lip moved off the reed and allowed a clearer vibration. So, it was for tone more than anything. Nowadays, it's not pulled all the way flat, but still quite a bit.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-01 01:53
To me, the chin should always, always, always be flattened and pointed.
No exceptions.
Note that I am not advocating the "smiley" embouchure as that makes the tone too thin.
It seems to me that the student may be lowering the jaw while pointing her chin - solution for that would be to start her out with the "other embouchure" and then tell her to think of pressing down hard with her upper lip on the mouthpiece.
The chin will point naturally and she won't be thinking of lowering her jaw (without knowing it).
Cause it seems obvious that you have told her "don't lower the jaw while pointing the chin" and she is doing it naturally and not able to control it yet. By pressing on the top lip (she can practice that by putting her index finger on her top teeth and pressing down with the lip while pressing up with her finger - opposing pressure to feel what it feels like).
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-05-01 05:23
The control of a well-formed embouchure comes more from the lips than the jaw. You may have the only 10 year old in the country who actually isn't biting the end of the mouthpiece off. Work with that. I would work on building a firm but flexible embouchure with the lips and keep the jaw set in a more relaxed position. Work on a beautiful sound first and then find the pitch. If the child plays consistently flat (emphasis on consistency), which is unlikely once some strength is built up, shorten the barrel.
Look up the teachings of Daniel Bonade, particularly as documented by Larry Guy, for a thoughtful overview of his embouchure technique. Listening to his incredible sound in recordings, and having studied with four of his pupils myself, I enthusiastically teach my students out of that "book". It is a rare thing, but the band director seems to be praying out of the right hymnal where clarinet technique is concerned on this one.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-02 00:33
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> To me, the chin should always, always,
> always be flattened and pointed. No exceptions.
Don't tell Stanley Drucker.
Drucker does not have a picture perfect embouchure, but yet produces a sound which has resonance, coloration and power.
I show my beginners that if the chin is in the correct position (flat, not bunched) it should be easy to insert a pencil (or two) in the space between the chin and the mouthpiece.
It is something they can all continually check in front of the mirror at home.
A recent rehearsal picture of our clarinet section (I'm in the black shirt) which shows variations of embouchures:
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1827/pictures/clarinets.jpg ...GBK
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-05-02 01:49
Check placement of top front teeth on mouthpiece, cover bottom teeth with least amount of bottom lip. Point chin. How much? Point till the skin right below the bottom lip is firm and taunt against the bottom teeth and gum. Using the forefinger tap the skin, it should be firm, not mushy, and the chin will come to a point. The corners of the mouth will point down slightly. Blow middle C, grasp barrel between thumb and forefinger trying to move mouthpiece from left to right. Mouthpiece should not move and the tone of the C should not change from the wiggling of the mouthpiece. I tend to think your student is not keeping her teeth on the mouthpiece, or when she tries to point the chin, she lets go with the top teeth making it all go flat. All the above with a relaxed and open throat blowing a steady stream of hot air should make not only an intune tone but a clear, characteristic clarinet sound.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-05-02 02:05
I have found in my playing (I began by the 'bunched' method) I did indeed get a more resonant sound (due to less clamping on the reed) with a flat chin (and pointed). To ammend my 6 years of learning the "wrong" way, I tried holding the clarinet closer to my body, as I had it pretty far out...not as far as oboe players, but far enough to notice a difference between me and the rest of the clarinet section. It sort of forced me to flatten my chin because there isn't nearly as much room down there. Then the more open tone came.
But apparently, Drucker plays the "bunched" way and Stoltzman plays with the double-lip embouchure. Just goes to show there are other methods that work, but, by far, the flat chin, et al. is the most common and most proven method.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-02 02:36
Gigliotti as well as Allard taught me to be able to move the mouthpiece from side to side in the mouth - not with tight corners (so that the wings weren't pinched).
Gigliotti would shake the mouthpiece from side to side and if it didn't more, the player was "too tight".
Just shows that there are many ways to play.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-02 22:25
I've always turned against all these funny fixed rules that only produces funny faces on people making them look stupid, creating tention if they are followed and feelings of guilt if they're not followed "correctly".
Stand in front of the mirror and look at your face. Pretty? Ok, let's keep it like that. Now, open your mouth and put a clarinet mouthpiece in your mouth with a small amount of lower lip covering the teeth and make sure that the rest of your face looks the same as before even when blowing. "Voilà", you'll have the most natural embouchure that will most certainly work for you if you keep your ears open as well. Nota bene, it IS as simple as that. If some besserwissers want to impose something else on you that makes you look funny don't listen.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-05-03 08:41)
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Author: ffrr
Date: 2005-05-03 05:01
Well, I'm confused anyway. How can something be both flat AND pointed at the same time?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-03 08:40
For coloring the sound or to mellow out certain legatos it's absolutely necessary to puff the cheeks occationally. This is something you do by ear if you find it necessary at a certain musical moment. Sound colour is not only about air stream, it's also about cavity and the possibilities to change it.
Puffing your cheeks is also a very good way to get the highest notes on an Eb-clarinet as well as achieving a fuller and richer sound on a contra-bass clarinet.
"Drucker does not have a picture perfect embouchure, but yet produces a sound which has resonance, coloration and power."
Because he has something even better: Awareness, musicality and open ears.
"Drucker also puffs his cheeks from time to time. But I'm not goona teach that one."
David, you're not gonna produce any Druckers if you're not losening up your slightly rigid attitude as I hear it in matters like this.
I can agree that this is not how you would teach a beginner to achieve a good mouth possition (see my earlier posting) but a good teacher should know when to let the leash go if the student is mature enough to think musically. There are no rules that can't be broken. There is a reason why Stanley puffs his cheeks and that's because he's a full blood professional and don't have to listen to anyobody elses opinion. The people who always go by the book never get anywhere. To be successful you have to know when, where and how to break the "rules" or not thinking about them at all. Everything else is "taliban"-fundamentalism.
Sorry to say Llewsrac, but you are my nightmare of a teacher as I understand your posting.
Alphie
Clarinet/Eb-clarinet RSPO
Post Edited (2005-05-03 10:49)
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-05-03 12:07
Two words: Dizzy Gillespie.
He didn't play clarinet, but the point about rigidity is the same.
M
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-05-03 21:01
well this topic certainly brought out the worst in people. while it is true that not everything works for "absolutely" everyone, the basics of clarinet playing hold true for everyone with a face. just because a great player does something "strange" that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone else. that said, teaching a beginning student the most common and tried and true method of producing a good sound is not a bad thing, and probably the wisest. then work with the student and have them experiment. one still needs to get that reed to vibrate for all its worth and the muscles around the mouthpiece must be consistent. not one of my teachers told me what to do, just how to do it. then they took the time and helped me to get the best sound possible for my set up and my face. the amount of air flow and soft palate control does a lot for intonation as well.
please stop being so nasty to others just because they hold a different view point.
~~JK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-03 21:34
clarinets1 wrote:
> please stop being so nasty to others just because they hold a
> different view point.
[ We will decide if anyone needs a reprimand, not you. This thread has been fine. Differing opinions and lively debate are perfectly acceptable - GBK ]
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-03 22:32
As usual maybe some historical perspective maybe can shed some light over this topic as well.
This flat and pointed chin and cheek teaching was abandoned in Europe some 30 to 40 years ago. It’s origin comes from what happens naturally when playing with a double lip embouchure (DLE). It was taught mainly in Italy where double lip was more or less standard until mid 20th century, as well as in Spain, Greece and South America. As more and more people gave up the double lip embouchure, some teachers insisted that their students should maintain the “facial effects” of DLE for various reasons like maintaining a sound tradition. As this technique caused unnecessary tension in the facial muscles for most students most of them gave it up as soon as they got an own career as players. In my country the two last conservatory teachers who carried on this tradition were taught in Italy and Denmark. The teacher in Denmark was Ib Eriksson who played with a DLE but his student decided not to, but carried on the flat and pointing method. All his students that I know of have left that method in agony.
To me it seems like very few people know about this origin. They only carry on without thinking twice, a method that comes naturally using DLE but seems very constructed when playing with the teeth ON the MP. Why is that? The only reason I can think of is that they only pass on what they’ve been told by their teachers without thinking believing it's a gospel and without any knowledge about the negative effects it might have on individual students who maybe have to spend years getting it right for them.
Inform yourselves about what you’re passing on and seek the roots to all kinds of teaching and stop spreading bad habbits.
How this method came to North America I don’t know. Do you have any clarinet icon from Italy who started it?
Alphie
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-03 22:34
--------------------------
"Drucker also puffs his cheeks from time to time. But I'm not goona teach that one."
David, you're not gonna produce any Druckers if you're not losening up your slightly rigid attitude as I hear it in matters like this.
------------------------------
Alphie, I've taught 3 finalists in the ICA Competition, 1 winner of it and a finalist in the Fischoff Chamber Music Competition.
It seemed to work pretty well for them....
btw - the tone should never sound tense nor thin. That isn't correct either.
Post Edited (2005-05-03 22:42)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2005-05-03 22:36
ffrr wrote:
> Well, I'm confused anyway. How can something be both flat AND
> pointed at the same time?
From the lip to the point of the chin should be relatively flat not bunched. Of course when there is no bunching, there is a natural curvature but that is ok. That's the "flat" part of the "flat and pointed". Now for the "pointed" part. Basically this means that the point of the chin should be pointed toward the ground, which actually results in pulling the lip to chin section flat.
It's difficult to explain in words but hopefully you can visualize it.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-03 22:51
David, congratulations! I'm not saying it doesn't work for some. What I'm turning against is when you're saying:
"To me, the chin should always, always, always be flattened and pointed. No exceptions".
To me this is rigid, knowing the history behind the method that is built on a misunderstanding and after having had many friends who simply gave it up and had to start all over again because it didn't work for them, just because of individual unflexibility from their teacher who didn't accept any other way to blow the clarinet.
Alphie
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2005-05-03 23:08
Alphie --
You may be interested to know that Robert McGinnis (Philadelphia Orchestra and New York Philharmonic many years ago) explained the clarinet embouchure in a manner remarkably similar to your 2005-05-02 post.
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Author: Tara
Date: 2005-05-03 23:25
Wow- this seems to have brought about many passionate opinions! Personally, I start my sixth grade beginner class with mouthpiece and barrel only, giving them very strict instructions on embouchure formation. We spend a great deal of time producing a good fundamental sound with what I teach as the correct embouchure before we even put the clarinet together. Pitch, tone, and articulation can all be addressed initially on the mouthpiece and barrel alone.
Just my 2 cents- it's working for me.
Good luck,
Tara
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-03 23:29
Alphie, I do understand. But I'm still thinking that we are talking about the "smiley" embouchure which I don't do nor teach.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-03 23:39
John S. To me this is the most natural way to build an embouchure. Then again, in various parts of the world there are people with quite large lips. I can imagine that the flat and pointing method can be good for people with large lips and maybe that's one of the reasons why the double lip embouchure disappeared first in Germany and in the Nordic countries where most peoples lips are thinner.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-05-03 23:41)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-05-03 23:44
Dizzy Gillespie puffed his cheeks because he was using rotary breathing.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-05-03 23:54
David B, would you agree that the flat and pointing method appears naturally when playing with a double lip embuchure?
Alphie
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-04 02:47
No, actually I wouldn't agree. I can play with a "strawberry chin" the same if I wanted to whether it is single or double lipped.
I don't play with an extremely tight chin as that would produce (for me) a tight sound. So possibly it's the level of tightness that we are getting at.
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Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2005-05-05 16:18
"The embouchure IS A MUCH MORE COMPLEX PROBLEM than mere lips and teeth.The size of the mouth, the resonant cavities it presents, the slackness or tension of its walls, the position and function of the tongue, all these have vital parts to play in producing a clarinet tone. Generally speaking, the reed is placed against the lower lip, which covers the lower teeth, and the mouth is then closed so that the upper teeth press upon the top of the mouthpiece. The jaw muscles then compress the reed by the action of the lower teeth pressing the lower lip against it, bringing it close to the facing of the mouthpiece so that it can be set in vibration. The muscles of the cheeks are responsibible for both the size of the cacity of the mouth and its reflecting characteresties, since they form the all-important walls at the sides of it. The jaw muscles govern not only the pressure exerted on the reed but the size of the resonating cavity increasing or decreasing it at will by the movement of the base of the tongue, the position and muscular tension of the tongue. The cheek muscules must be firm to give any possibility of labial control. Even though there is an enlargement of the oral cavity when the cheeks
are puffed-out, this is offset by the flabbiness of the walls surrounding it and the relaxation of tension seriously affects lip-support. The cheeks should therefore be held firmly. There should be little evidence that they are containing an air column under pressure. With the firm walls provided by the cheeks, the hard palate above, the teeth in front and the firm underside of the tongue below, the vibrating reed is enclosed in a large and resonate cavity. It must be the aim of every player and teacher to ensure that the emboucher fulfils these basic requirements."
Jack Brymer
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-05-05 16:36
I'm sure Jack Brymer knew how to spell embouchure!
[ Please - We DO NOT point out spelling errors or typos - GBK ]
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-05-05 18:15
[ Please - We DO NOT point out spelling errors or typos - GBK ]
I know GBK. Sorry. But I think that it is VERY bad when you quote someone and spell incorrectly. This would imply that the person you are quoting has made the spelling error. In effect you are actually misquoting them.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-05-05 18:32
One of the reasons why we prefer links to quoted passages, when possible, rather than copying or pasting the entire passage ...GBK
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-05-05 18:48
It's hard for me to produce a good sound with the chin pointed and flat. It feels like I need some bottom lip over my bottom teeth to produce a good sound. When I put it against my lower teeth, the quality of my sound decreases. I dunno. I also play slightly off to the side- the right side to be exact. What should I do? Anyone else have this problem? Could this be because my top front teeth go slightly over my bottom front teeth? I'm so confused with my embouchure.
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