 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Dow Symphony NB
Date: 2002-05-09 12:04
I feel that being in tune is just as important as tone quality. Are there others who share this feeling? The main reason is out of tune players seem to have poor sound.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-05-09 12:18
The end result must be music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every aspect of your performance is important.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-05-09 13:00
Tone 'quality' is inseperable from intonation. To me, it is impossible to appreciate anyone's tonal qualities if their playing is out of tune.
Following the thread further, if someone's intonation is superb, their tone quality will be enhanced to the listener.
That is why I shake my head at the folks who choose their equipment solely on the way it 'sounds' rather than the way it tunes. Without great intonation (which, frankly, comes more from the player than the equipment anyway) I certainly don't want to listen to anyone's sound.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-05-09 13:45
It's sort of like asking, "what's more important, inhaling or exhaling?". To breath you MUST do both, equally well.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-05-09 14:37
Just a query for the two Davids. When you say that poor intonation gives the impression of bad tone, do you mean that it does so only in context with other players who are playing in tune? And then, is it a direct clash of intonation that creates that impression, or a more subtle difference? Presumably the tone of a solo clarinet is not subjectively down graded if it is out of tune with itself. If I am right about this, does it not follow that the players who are playing in tune also seem to have poor tone because the tuning clash with the out of tune player, so that you cannot readily detect the innocent, good sounding player in that case?
And, is it better, tone wise, to be flat or sharp, or is there no difference? Personally, I find a given degree of flatness more difficult to tolerate than a given degree of sharpness. Finally, does bad tone when playing in tune give the impression (falsely) of bad intonation? I have certainly heard players who sounded both bad and flat, but the tuning meter would not agree with the idea they were flat in terms of pitch.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2002-05-09 15:28
My humble opinion: Even playing solo, one can hear if one is out of tune with him/herself, and it sounds bad --- it's not just an ensemble concern. And despite the trumpeters' axiom ("I'd rather be sharp than out of tune") --- sharp and flat are both inherently bad, although as David Hattner explained very well in an earlier thread, intonation is never absolute, it's always relative to the other players and to the modal and harmonic structure of the music, so intonation is constantly being adjusted (both consciously and subconsciously) by the good player.
It has been found (in the science of psychoacoustics) that certain aspects of a player's tone quality can make the sound seem sharp or flat, despite what the tuner shows --- I believe semantically this is the difference between "pitch" and "frequency".
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Author: HAT
Date: 2002-05-09 15:45
#1 who cares what it sounds like unaccompanied? 99.99% of the clarinet playing a person does WHICH SOMEONE ELSE BESIDES THE PLAYER WILL LISTEN TO will not be unaccompanied. Auditions are the exception, so you better learn to tune with yourself very well.
#2 It is true that the moderately trained ear 'tolerates' small degrees of sharpness more than small degrees of flatness. However, the refined musical ear tolerates neither, THUS. . .
#2.5 No one 'plays in tune.' The best players work and concentrate on their intonation every second the instrument is being played and adjust constantly. The same note needs to be placed differently based on its position in the chord, even if it's a half second later. The best players get very close.
#3 There are two ways to tune up at the beginning of a rehearsal or concert. You can tune so your flattest notes are in tune (the way most people tune) or you can tune so your sharpest notes are in tune. Personally, I choose the 2nd way, which give more flexibility to come down a little on the sharper notes. HOWEVER, there should be little difference between the two anyway!!!!
#4 If you play 2nd clarinet (orchestra, not band) don't even think of tuning at all sharp. If the principal is sensitive, you will drive him/her nuts.
#5 Learning to play in tune is a long process and it begins with superb instrumentalism. Until you can control the intonation of the instrument AT ALL DYNAMICS you can hardly play in tune.
David Hattner, NYC
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Author: Willie
Date: 2002-05-09 20:26
I agree with David about tuning on the sharp notes. All six in our section did this before oour last concert and we sounded much better. If you are used to a certain clarinet you know automaticly where to lip up a bit (altissimo on mine). I find it much easier to lip up and maintain control and tone than to lip down. For me, lipping down just cancels anything that can be concidered good tone.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-05-10 13:32
I disagree with Willie regarding lipping notes up or down.
I think the idea of lipping a note down a bit, thereby ensuring the embouchure is relaxed and 'cushioning' the sound, is preferable to squeezing the note out, making the sound thinner & more likely to squeak.
I favour using sharper fingerings and either bringing them down with the lip or by shading the fingers/keys
jez
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-05-10 14:28
I am still quite open minded on the question of tuning affecting perception of tone per se. There are quite a number of players who do/did not play in tune if one were to adopt the "highly refined" standards discussed above. That includes many original instrument players, Dieter Klocker, sometimes Alan Hacker and not infrequently Brymer/ de Peyer, Charles Draper, Reginald Kell. Klocker's sound never fails to please me, whether or not I gib a bit at the occasional flat or sharp note. Sensitvity to intonation issues is not precisely the same as whether intonation appears to affect tone, which was the point of the thread. But clearly I might perceive a reduction in Klocker's tonal qualities if he played a clashing intonation with another clarinetist, or another instrument of similar spectrum like a flute. It is that sort of issue which interests me in the context of this discussion on psychoacoustical effects.
The idea of lipping flat notes up just makes me think of "squeezing" and "biting". Few people seem to advocate that. If your tone falls apart when you slacken embouchure, then how do you play Rhapsody in Blue with good tone? Something is wrong with the set up if tone goes to pot when easing the embouchure to help bright notes settle down.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2002-05-11 02:37
My enbouchure is already fairly soft, I guess from playing the contra so much, so for me there's not much left to loosen. As for going up, I don't have to bite or pinch much as my horn's not that far off. I've spent quite some time with a tuner and tuning chart then finding the best tuning for at least 3 of my horns. None are perfect, but to me its like sighting in a rifle or bow, except with them, they're dead on.
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Author: Jerry McD
Date: 2002-05-11 21:00
This is a very interesting thread. I agree with HAT that pitch is everything. If you can't play in tune nobody cares how great your sound is. I believe that if you play a note that is out of tune, it is a wrong note, even if you have the correct fingering for the note written on the page. As for tuning your instrument I think that is really personal to your embouchure. I play with very little pressure from my top teeth, therefore I don't have much room to lip notes down so it benefits me to make sure the sharp notes are in tune before the flat notes. It is easier for me to lip up rather than lip down, but that is unique to me...everyone's situation will be different.
Happy 'tootin'
Jerry McD.
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Author: Dave Dow Symphony nb
Date: 2002-05-18 16:59
Thanks for all the wonderful stuff here...I may add that I have found alot here that as a Principal Clarinet player great to read...playing 2cd which I did for years was really quite difficult and this because I personally found the chaumeau more senisitive to pictch troubles...I also never had much luck with lipping up and found I just seemed to play lower and this may be the way I play rather than the reed or mouthpieces...sometimes on 2cd I found unisons with the t 2cd flute to be really difficult and never realized that blending could be so hard...I personally love playing in unison with cellos and horns although they really tune differently and therefore found changing color alot of fun...never really liked Brymer that much but his expression is good... the Boosey and Hawkes always seem sharp but that is way better than flattness at any cost!!! I still think good tone is primary to making wonderful muisic....
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Author: claril
Date: 2005-04-27 16:37
Hmm.. I really love Brymer's playing, i love it when I hear him, I have heard two of his recordings, his Mozart one is amazing to me.. Although I do agree that tone is primary to anythings else.. tuning is a long process, does anyone know long long it takes to feel more and more compfortable?
Thanks
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-04-27 19:23
Other students in my school, they play out of tune. What they care about is the tone. More cautious with their tone, thier intonation gets worse and worse. Eb and Bass have much more serious issue. I have never felt happy to play with them.
I am so annoyed with other students there because they want to sound like certain player. They talk about equipments all the time even during the rehearsals. They ask me what equipment I have every rehearsal and try to compare with others. They use the term like dark and bright.
The best thing is working with tuner and learning how to play in tune. Yes, this is just basic thing and sometimes sounds boring to do, but this is very important.
Learn very basic things, this is the best way to be better player. I know that many and many people want to imitate what great players do. But, this is not way of true art making. Learn basic principal and create own ideas based on good amount of experience and interpretation. Be artistic and be a good musician.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-04-27 22:24
I am personally considering purchasing a new instrument this summer, and my main concern is tone. Leaving trained variables such as embouchure and air support aside, it is far easier to correct tuning in new equipment then it is to improve the tone/response. Available are: tuning rings, work done on tone holes, lowering/raising pads, PULLING OUT, etc.
That all applies to new equipment, though.
As for playing, I believe that playing in tune is much more important than playing 'in tone' because playing out of tune is quite a bit more noticeable.
I have also found that one affects the other, usually in a direct correlation of quality. (Tone better=tuning better). As a band director once said: "Intonation means in TUNE and in TONE".
hopefully this has been insightful and not just rambling
-T
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-04-28 00:39
I'm not sure that I agree that sharp playing is easier for the ear to tolerate than flat playing.
Or perhaps my thinking is influenced by listening to vocalists. It really sounds hideous when a vocalist is sharp in relation to the accompaniment. At least flat singing might sound something like a "blue note."
There's is probably something psychological about the terms sharp and flat. Being under the pitch is something "less than." But in my book, being sharp is just as bad.
Also, a personal quirk--I get annoyed with the frequent use of tuners. A tuner can establish a point of reference--A440, or maybe an E for the first string on a guitar. After that, use your ears.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-04-28 00:44
Speaking personally: there is no hard and fast rule regarding tuning. It is so damned situational as to be impossible to pin down. If you're playing with someone else (duet or trio) then you ALL need to agree to your pitch - if a piano is one of the other players then your tuning can be very defined (I personally dislike equal temperament because it's so equalised)
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-28 01:23
Quote:
feel that being in tune is just as important as tone quality. Are there others who share this feeling? The main reason is out of tune players seem to have poor sound. I believe it's MORE important. Especially in an ensemble where you have to blend with others playing the same exact part.
I attribute clarinet playing "heirarchies". A priority list. And tuning is above tone quality on mine (because, logically speaking, what good is excellent tone quality, if you can't play it in tune?)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-04-28 08:17
Since this thread first appeared I have thought about this subject. I believe that bad tone can often sound subjectively out of tune when it might not actually be. If so, then such tone has the same unpleasant effect as bad tuning, but without the benefit of a nice overall sound.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-04-28 13:16
without a doubt- Tuning!
During section playing - intonation off even a few cents can send shivers down even great grandma's back. A tone quality would have to be significantly poor to be a distraction if the intonation is spot on.
I play in a lot of pits where doublers may use a plastic BARI reed on their clarinet. The shrill tone blends fine so long as the intonation is spot on. But man, I dont care how great your tone is if your playing even just a little out of tune.
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Author: claril
Date: 2005-04-28 13:23
Yes, the problem is to be a pretty much perfect pitcher, but who says it is easy?
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-04-28 14:26
Being in tune, having good tone and intonation are all equally important with any instrument and the end result should be thought as seeking a really pleasant sound. If performer is slightly flat or slightly sharp even for a split second the beauty and flow of the music is lost. A good example are some performers on American Idol. I also am not a firm believer that tuners are as important as our ears.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-04-29 15:19
I have the impression that if the mechanism for tone production is out of whack the intonation will be out of whack. That is to say that a good tone is a prerequisit for good intonation.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-29 15:32
ginny, I can see your point, but I have to disagree --- on an abstract level, consider this: one could play, say, a soprano sax perfectly in tune (theoretically!) but judged as a CLARINET the tone quality would be considered very poor. Much more to the point, I've overhauled a few R-13s which played very well in tune but had a sound that was very harsh and strident to my ears. I'd say the 'mechanisms' for good tone production and good intonation are certainly related and interwoven, but also are independent of each other to a certain degree. Both must be addressed independently and in concert (no pun intended) by the conscientious player.
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2005-04-29 23:19
If you are able to play in tune, it is likely that you also have a good sense of tone.
In a way I think that playing in tune is better than having a good sound, because listening to out-of-tune players is utterly painful. But saying that playing in tune is better than good sound is kind of like saying that the brain is more important than the heart.
-------------
"You have to play just right to make dissonant music sound wrong in the right way"
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-05-01 00:25
I would have to agree that being in tune is just as important as tone quality. I'm in search of a new clarinet and I have played many clarinets with absolutely wonderful tones but then I put it with a tuner, the clarinet is way out of tune, so I sigh and put the clarinet back. I won't even consider to buy a clarinet that has poor intonation. There's a range that is acceptable for a new clarinet that can easily be fixed by a technician, new mouthpiece, lip up/down, etc.
What is considered an OK range of intonation for a new clarinet? I've always wondered if I am being too picky with my intonation standards.
When our 1st chair tunes, she always lips down her pitch to match the tuner so the rest of the band can tune. When she tunes, her tone gets so raspy and gross and she usually squeeks a tad. BUT the thing is, after tuning she doesn't adjust to what she tuned to and then she gets out of tune. This annoys the rest of the 1st clarinet section (which I am in) along with some other people that have come and talked to me about it in our band. Is this acceptable for a 1st chair player to do?
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-05-02 05:09
If the tone is good on each step of a scale the intonation should be good. Tone could be considered a prerequisit to intonation. In order to have good intonation the tone has to be good. If you are in tune it should sound good. This guy is cant tell the differance ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-05-02 19:21
Spot on, David. Tuning is absolutely essential to developing a good tone. So what if it's a great tone and you're 50 cents off?
Practicing long tones in front of a tuner really helps. I also developed an ear for intonation when I played in a group whose leader didn't read music and we had to play by ear. It's amazing what that can do for learning to play in tune.
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Author: frank
Date: 2005-05-02 19:53
Tuners are great to test initial pitch of an instrument and find where the pitch lies on different notes. Pulling out too far or using too short of a barrel with whack out the pitch of the instrument and make work much harder to stay in tune. Ears are a better choice for tuning. I see the "guilt meter" at work all the time. I find most people who use a tuner constantly are not in tune with others. I've even seen some players go as far as attaching the mic to the bell WHILE PLAYING! That is ridiculous. If you are in tune with the tuner, so what. What about being in tune with everyone else? The over emphasis on tuners is appaling to me. Without a good ear, you will never be able to adjust, which is the hard part of instrumental ensemble playing. Doing long tones to a tuner means nothing if you can't apply it in the context of a performing group where there may be a fluctuation between A=438 - A=460. The pitch is a give and take. Nothing is absolute or ideal. I guess it's a pet peeve of mine. I hate tuners! 
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-05-02 23:53
I think intensive and slow playing of scales while listening is a great way to teach your embouchure to adjust subconsciously for each note of your clarinet. If you have a properly educated ear (and most of us should, having listened to music for a lifetime) you will know where each note in each scale should go.
I am always surprised when I close my eyes and play a scale and then open them and look at the tuner and see how I have hit a note right on which I was having trouble with when I was consciously using my embouchure and the tuner. The unconscious "natural embouchure" seems to use the interior of the mouth (tongue position and shape) to tune naturally if one trains onself with this method. One has to listen carefully as the scales are played for a time. But by using this method instead of the conscious and mechanical effort of lip pressure and tuner, playing in tune seems to become easy and the flexibility of the instrument's tuning seems increased. And since it is subconscious, it becomes thoroughly integrated into your playing style. The best part seems to be (for me) that the greater flexibility of tuning gives a greater range of embouchure adjustment in which to find that best tone for each note more easily also. Now if only I could find an equally effective method for developing finger technique.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-05-03 05:58
These are some great comments! I try not to comment on other player's tuning because they should be able to sort it out by themselves. Often, people make inappropriate and thoughtless comments to other players on tuning, however.
After getting the clarinets somewhat in tune, then tuning with other sections is of concern. Many times, great trumpet players play so sharp, especially in the upper register. Flute players may do the same and one can sometimes tell that a flutist has not practiced recently because of the sharpness of their upper register. Great violinists seem to be right on but the lesser lights in the violin section may be all over the map, not necessarily sharp. It's very difficult to adjust to these variations and you cannot always match all the funny pitches that you hear.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-05-03 08:52
I'd argue that there's a point of compromise between an instrument that tunes generally pretty well (within say circa 10-15 cents of most notes other than the bottom ones) and one with a tonal spectrum that your brain feels is harmonious.
If you feel that the tone across all registers is even and pleasing, I believe you are more inclined to play better, because your brain stops concentrating on basic quality of sound production issues which it now takes as a given, and allows you to relax and feel the space between notes more, and concentrate on all aspects of interpretation such as colour, phrasing, tension/ release etc...
By way of an illustration, I have a Selmer 9* that intones perfectly (that is, plays perfectly in tune: yes I know, remarkable) yet the altimssimo has a slightly raw edge that leads me to favour my Selmer 10G (which needs to be understood much better to play with decent intonation) which has a purer altissimo and more complex sound. As a result, I wouldn't hesitate to play the 10G every time given the choice of the two instruments.
I can't help thinking that away from the little electronic tuner (which helps me to understand which notes need help in one direction or the other) it's interesting how your brain helps tunes you to the pitch of the piano or instruments you are playing with.
Second illustration: I have now fallen in love with an old (7X,XXX) Buffet R13, which I have grown to favour over my 10G because the altissimo is clearly sweeter, the overall character is a smidgen more resonant in a really nice way, and my brain tells me I like it more, because it fills me with a warmer feeling inside than the 10G when I play it! It's not more accurate, but like the 10G, it can be played decently to pitch as you learn to compensate for its imperfections.
Undoubtedly the best clarinet I have ever owned in terms of beautiful tone and tuning is my Peter Eaton International. Both are totally and effortlessly brilliant on this instrument. But I prefer the feel under my fingers of the Buffet and Selmer, and therefore feel more confident with them. Shame, but dexterity and confidence matter too. To such an extent I've just put the Eaton up for auction on eBay. You see, I can't justify owning three Bb instruments.
And yes, to those who say I'm talking b_lls since every clarinet will have a similar character based on the acoustic character of the player, I completely agree. The basic character of a player will come through no matter what instrument is played. But to deny subtle yet subjectively really important differences from one instrument to another is plain wrong.
Nick
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-05-03 19:23
It seems as if most people agree that while tuning and tone are both extremely important, that tuning is slightly more important, which I agree with.
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 17:42)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-05-04 15:21
Pitch is everything followed by tone. If the pitch isn't good, nobody will want to hear the tone. You are basically going to sound like what you sound like - however, when selecting the Clarinet, the pitch is everything.
A Clarinet with bad intonation will never sound good unless that is fixed. Not an easy task. (note that I wrote Clarinet, not Clarinetist)
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