 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-04-26 23:20
Over the past few years on this forum I've read that when you purchase a new Clarinet you must try several because some sound better than other's. I've also read where some turn out to be downright awful! Since a few thousand or more dollars are involved with acquiring a new horn from a major manufacturer, why such poor control? Are certain brands more troublesome than other's?
Fred
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-04-26 23:27
I don't know that it's a difference between a dog that won't hunt, and a champion pointer... it's more about getting something that "Feels right".
In that sense, a little variation makes for a better selection.
However, with CNC machining and better materials, these variations should be slight - often the difference is in pad height and spring tensions.
I have always felt that you should buy an inexpensive instrument and have it set up to your spec... that's what I did with my $75 Ridenour TR147.
That thing plays nearly as well as my megabuck Opus!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-04-26 23:35
Hi Fred,
You're used to the precision of cameras and associated equipment; I don't believe that there is quite that fine a tolerance with clarinets. In the "old days" of the bellows camera, I suspect the amount of hand work assembly was very similar to the way that clarinets and most musical instruments are made, even today. Fit, adjust, refit, more adjustment...
Just an observation that seems to amke sense to me.
HRL
PS I remember the time I had an AE1 taken apart for repair and watched. Too complicated for me. However, I would not hesitate to remove and replace a computer mother board, power supply, tenon cork, some key corks, a pad or two, simple springs ...
I think it is all about tolerances.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-04-27 03:47
This is just my opinion but it is an educated one after talking to numerous industry folks.
Among instruments, clarinets are somewhat unique because the retail prices are very very competitive. Second, the manufacturing process is very labor intensive at the pro instrument level. Third, the market is resistant to changes in things such as materials.
I've looked at numerous instruments from harmonicas to pianos and guitars and clarinets on average have the narrowist margins of profit although some guitars are very tight. This forces everyone from manufacturers to importers to dealers to look at ways of containing costs and maxing out profits.
As manufacturers seek cost containment they explore different approaches. Some will try to reduce material cost by againg wood less etc.
Others may try to reduce labor by introducing degrees of automation which may or may not affect the quality of the instruments.
One area that is fairly common is that manufacturers spend less time on properly adjusting and tuning the instrument before it leaves the factory causing a wider variance in how the instruments play off the shelf. I think one of the most misleading statements made regarding clarinet sales is the so called "play tested." It is a far cry from getting a clarinet to sound notes to playing well....g
I've talked to dozens of people in the industry and all tell me that they have attempted to offer instruments that were hand selected and set up but buyers were unwilling to accept the additional costs involved. So as a result, many if not most instruments are less than ideal when first played.
Also, it is worth considering that each manufacturer of quaility instruments has a philosophy of design since the perfect clarinet doesn't exist and each are trade offs of one kind or another. Perhaps Buffet is the perfect example as many of the qualities of Buffet cited by fans are also the qualities cited by people who do not like them.
Best
Rick
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-04-27 20:59
Very interesting replies! So does this mean that a professional clarinet technician can take a new instrument and make it "right" for you? Are most horns coming from the majors fixable? Hank with cameras the first production models all seem to have bugs, that is why I always wait at least a year [after all the screaming] before I purchase one, same with buying a new automobile design.
Fred
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Author: Jenab
Date: 2005-04-27 21:19
I think a good set up would be a plain student resonite clarinet, but swap for a wood barrel, and replace the plastic MP with a medium hard rubber MP like Mitchel Lurie M3 or Vandoren B44 or 5RV lyre. Some people say Vandoren reeds are better, but I'm just now breaking in my first one, and up to now I've had no problems with the cheaper Rico reeds. On the other hand, I'm not a concert-grade player. I'm just a hobbiest with clarinets; it's a way to amuse myself on summer afternoons.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-04-27 23:09
All,
Fred has some very nice professional line clarinets. I think he is wanting advice on purchasing "new" pro-line instruments.
I think Rick has some very good points. Some clarinets are not regulated properly from the factory. I think a lot has to do with the worker who adjusted and regulated the instrument at the factory. Aside from that, they will all play a bit differently even given a common ground. I think we all know that from purchasing mouthpieces. I tried several of Greg Smith's mouthpieces of the same facing and thougt that one out performed the others. Maybe it was physcological, but as long as I was happy, who should care but me?
So, Fred, yes...I would play a few and make pick the one that seemed to stand out. It's always a good idea to take someone with you who knows the instrument or a decent recording device. They all sound differently that our "perception". In closing...good luck on your quest.
jbutler
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-27 23:19
I suppose an ideal would be to take an astute technician along with you when purchasing.
He can probably tell you which of the qualities you don't like in a particular instrument can be easily corrected by proper adjustment.
Unfortunately this is usually not possible.
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-04-29 00:16
John Butler is correct, I do want to purchase a new clarinet! Think I'll wait until I go up to New York, more choices. I've narrowed my companies down to Selmer or Buffet, now its just question of which model from which concern. Think I'll check the boards archive, I know I'll find some answers...
Fred
Post Edited (2005-06-02 13:50)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-04-29 02:18
There is this rampant myth that clarinets aren't "set up" at the factory. All pro clarinets, and probably all clarinets period from reputable manufacturers leave their facilities absolutely playable. There is no question they often get knocked out of whack in transit, which accounts for leaky pads, loose keys, etc. Also, changes in climate will cause the wood to change which might affect joint fit, pad sealing, etc.
Key heights, spring tension, and other matters of preference are set more or less standard with the assumption that a discerning player will go to a technician to get the horn tweaked to his or her preference. This is no different than a car being manufactured with an 8-way adjustable driver's seat. You wouldn't buy a car that had the seat dialed in and locked down in a position that the manufacturer has decided is optimal for the majority of drivers.
When selecting an instrument, I look for a horn that has fundamentals I can work with -- timbre, pitch, evenness, "ring". I don't worry about things that I know can be adjusted, including a lot of individual note pitches because they can be tweaked with pad heights. I try a horn (in this case Buffet) with several barrels as well, because frankly some horns play better with stock barrels, and others with Moennig or Chadash.
Basically, find the horn with the greatest potential, and go in assuming the cost is another $500 to have it set up to match your preferences and equipment.
have fun.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-29 10:57
My experiences of instruments very well packaged, straight from the Paris factory, is obviously very different from yours, and much of the stuff I see could not possibly have happened in transit. This is AS WELL as the tweaking stuff you refer to.
It is no myth. Perhaps it has something to do with the perception of the observer.
May I give just one example. On a bass clarinet there are linkage adjusting screws, made from nylon. On this brand new instrument the pitch of the female threads in the keys were wrong - but only in the lower section of the instrument, so the slots in the nylon screws got mangled when one tried to turn them. Needless to say they had not been adjusted correctly, but were already somewhat mangled. Clearly at the factory the problem was not identified, so a 'butcher' just kept trying to turn the screws when they would not turn further and did not complete the adjustment process. The threads were correct in the upper section.
Perhaps factories send all their returns to the antipodes. That does not exonerate the factory from an accusation of slovenliness!
Post Edited (2005-04-29 11:08)
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-04-29 11:48
I appreciate msloss's observations, but her observations are different than mine and many of the people I have spoken with, including several of the most highly regarded technicians in this country.
This is just my opnion but if a person has to figure on spending $500 to get a clarinet to play the way you want it then my point is made. Tweaking a clainet to personal preference is one thing, doing a major overhaul to make it worthwhile to play is entirely different.
This situation reminds me of the attitude of US auto manufactuerers a number of years ago who would send out cars with known defects and leave it to the dealers to fix. It wasn't until the Japanese auto makers began beating the brains out of the US mfrs, that a serious effort was made towards quality control.
Best
Rick
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-04-29 13:45
Rick, with all due respect, I think it would be appropriate to cite your sources, e.g. "the most highly regarded technicians in this country". Let me give a for-instance here: I acquired a Buffet R-13 Greenline Bb clarinet last year which played fine right out of the box. I could continue to play concerts on it as is, but it just isn't exactly set up for my preferences. I am sending it to Bill Brannen (who I would include on that list with high regard) this week for $500 worth of work which I do not think makes your point at all. Among the many things he will be doing, he will be changing a number of the pads to cork, adjusting spring tensions, changing key heights, and adding teflon to silence some of the keywork. I don't think this is a reflection on the manufacturer at a $2000 price point -- this is a very reasonable price to play to have the instrument fit me like a glove. See www.brannenwoodwinds.com for more information, including their comments on how the instruments change from the time they leave the factory.
If I paid 2 or 3 times that amount for a custom-built instrument such as a Chadash clarinet or the anticipated Backun instrument, I would expect the horn to be outfitted and setup to my needs from day 1. Again, a reasonable expectation at the higher price point for something made one-at-a-time to order.
Gordon, would you please describe what you consider "very well packaged"? Coming to the US they are anything but, and yes, I would hold them responsible for that. Even if they are shipped in cases, which many are not, a few underhand tosses from a longshoreman will take care of any fine adjustments because the cases just don't hold the instruments that securely.
If anyone would like, I will get Francois Kloc, Jerome Selmer, and Stan Garber to provide explanations of their quality control protocols. My point is this -- as Rick already pointed out, many customers will not pay the premium for the extra setup or special handling. The manufacturers are turning out a remarkably good product at a remarkably low price. Traveling from Paris to Los Angeles, or Elkhart, or Auckland things happen. It is a dealer's responsibility to ensure the instrument plays out of the box after it arrives, which is fairly minor work. If it is truly munged up as Gordon describes, the dealer should send it back to the factory, which is what I do on those infrequent occasions when that actually happens.
So, in sum, $500 is not to make the instrument playable, it is to customize it. Brannen, Chadash, Jacobi and the rest are part of the woodwind ecology and it seems to work just fine. I don't think the manufacturers could do it any better if they marked up the price and did it themselves. If the instrument doesn't play at the dealer, yell at the dealer. If anyone wants to cast a broad net over the manufacturers about QC, first take a trip to Paris and try instruments as they come off the line and then report back here with your notes. That is the only to neutralize for the X-factor of what happens between when the "butchers" get done with the horn and when it gets into a customer's hands.
With regards,
Mark Sloss
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-04-29 16:39
Ken,
100% agree, hence my points about timbre, intonation, etc. Some instruments are well made, but just don't have that special something that makes them extraordinary no matter what you do to them. That is also why I am a big endorser of using professionals to select instruments because of their ability to recognize the potential greatness in an instrument after adjustment, break-in, etc. Another $150 committed, but well worth it in terms of time and anguish saved dithering over a pile of instruments.
And after it is all said and done with selection, setup, barrels, mouthpieces, ligatures, etc., we still get a pretty fair shake in the economics department. I think only trumpet has us beat on price, and they go crazy with cryo-treatments, bells, valve caps, leadpipes and magic potions.
Cheers,
MS
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-04-29 19:33
Hey, I'm gonna steal me one a those. Maybe have it remade into a solid gold clarinet peg.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-30 00:30
msloss, you ask what I mean by very well packaged. I mean that if you dropped the package from a two-story window onto concrete there would be zero chance of damage. One example is a polyurethane(?) foam based soft case, inside a much larger carton, with air-based packaging between the two.-based foam.
An experienced technician knows that a well-built clarinet, possibly contrary to popular opinion, is a pretty robust piece of mechanism. It actually needs a lot of force to alter things. Such force is simply not readily available without DIRECT impact between an instrument part and a hard surface.
I am NOT talking about personal preference for pads or venting. I am talking about issues such as the example I gave. Another is slightly binding pivot tubes - simply a case of not enough time being spent getting them right... Perhaps the time-consuming lapping process has been eliminated by the accountants. No amount of adverse handling can do this to small, robust keys with short pivot tubes, on a packaged instrument in transit.
Another example is a bell tenon with about 12 small splits around the edge. A knock on a tenon without adequate packaging tends to push the tenon oval, and so create 1 or two splits, but not 12, evenly spaced! What DOES do this is setting the instrument section up in a lathe, with an internal cone-shaped 'centre' in the tail stock. If such a centre (far too risky in my book!) is forced too far in by a slight overfeed of the tail-stock quill, such a series of splits can be instantly induced. I am not saying this IS how it happened, but it certainly seems 99% likely.
I make my assertions from a pattern noted over perhaps of hundreds of ex-factory instruments. These faults are very common, at least in the top-maker brand I see most of. The fact of this is in no way negated by you having the luck to encounter a (small?) sample of the ones that happen not have these problems.
For your statements to be true, then you would be saying that I am lying about the examples I have given. It takes only a SINGLE example to prove something wrong, but I am not being pedantic here. I could give many more examples, demonstrating a pattern that proves even a generalisation wrong.
I stress that most players would not even notice these types of faults, but WOULD notice when Brannen included correction of certain of them in their makeover, for example the bass clarinet which NOW can be adjusted properly because the adjusting screws are operative. Does Brannen list every such item that they attend to in their job sheet, as I do? Or are they more politically correct in their relationship to manufactures... after all, they do sell instruments don't they?
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-04-30 02:59
Gordon,
My "small" sample is hundreds of instruments. Bill Brannen does not sell instruments and has not for many many years. And believe me, 15 minutes of conversation with the Brannens and you will find them to be anything but politically correct. They are extremely candid, a trait I find common among the top techs (well, all techs).
Here's the thing I don't get -- how do these instruments play at all with all these devastating defects? I think you made my point in your last paragraph and I want to turn the spotlight on the statement if I may: "...most players would not even notice these types of faults...". I completely agree with that statement without reservation. I think that fact drives the level of finish work that we all generally see in the major brands. Functional but not perfect.
As has already been pointed out, more time spent on finish work would mean fewer clarinets made and sold at a greater cost, a cost the market to date will not bear. Are mistakes made? Without a doubt. Do they render the instruments non-functional? I haven't seen it, but I haven't played every single instrument ever to come out of Paris to say with absolute certainty. I most certainly am not suggesting you are lying. I have observed many of the same things you have, but I do not characterize most of them as fatal flaws, and I don't think you have either. These instruments must play reasonably well, or they couldn't get sold.
I suppose we could debate this point ad nauseum and get nowhere since these issues are matters of degree. Yes, the Brannens clean up the sloppiness of the maker -- taking burrs off of screws, resetting posts, seating pads, replacing cross-threaded adjusters -- and it does make for a better playing experience. I assume your work is similarly accomplished and quite valuable to the playing community. Speaking for myself, I am not prepared to indict the manufacturers with words such as "slovenliness" based on these issues. That seems pretty far over the top. For me, the word "balance" comes to mind, which is not "perfect" but certainly appropriate for the price the market will sustain. For those willing to pay more, great techs can elevate these instruments to the next level toward perfection. Perhaps the techs should throw a few laurels at the makers for creating a steady stream of work from the more discerning buyers?
With respect and regards,
MS
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-30 05:04
Sorry about the misconception about Brannens selling. BTW is there any connection between www.brannenflutes.com and www.brannenwoodwinds.com ?
It seems we have a reasonably high level of agreement, with semantics playing a role here. For example, I tend to regard as 'slovenly' in pro instruments, issues which I would very rarely see in mass-produced student instruments.
Perhaps it is also to do with customer perception. I think that most buyers of brand new, near top-dollar instruments do not really expect to be buying incorrect threads, split tenons, thick squishy cork in linkages demanding accurate transmission of movement, binding pivot tubes, left G#/D# levers that disengage with their respective keys, sluggish action from poorly designed F#/C# springs, pad membranes so thin and brittle tht they start failing within a year, slef-adhesive on felt and 'cork' that creeps off keys, felt glued over a small fraction of the surface it covers, apalling leaks (quantity and size) where sax pads seal (no, not from transit!), venting issues that MOST players would be dissatisfied with, spring (and sax resonator) material that begins rusting in a year or two, ring keys that align poorly (rub) with tone holes, ........
A technician can put many of these things right fairly quickly.. To me, if the manufacturer didn't, the label 'slovenly' fits - just my perhaps over-perfectionist opinion. But I agree, they seem to get away with it, which along with making to cheap prices compared with say flute, is probably why it happens.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-04-30 13:52
Gordon,
Brannen flutes is a separate company.
jbutler
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