 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-04-17 13:10
I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase a brand new Low C Buffet Bass Clarinet around last Thanksgiving. I have been doing some work practicing and gigging on the instrument and it now seems to be broken in for the most part. After some initial difficulties with the octave mechanisms and other assorted small "start up" problems, it seems I have a real issue to deal with right now.
I seem to have extreme difficulty playing G, G#, and A in the clarion register (that is the G just above the staff to first ledger line A, if I remember my terminology correctly). These notes if I can get them out with out a horrible honk sound incredibly stuffy. The thing that is even more disconcerting is that it is not necessarily a consistent problem. I have tried experimenting with the voicing doing overtone exercises and that does not seem to be helping. I have had the instrument looked at numerous times (but not necessarily for this particular issue) and as far as I can tell there are no leaks. I do certainly plan on bringing it in again to be looked at to see if there is anything that can be done.
I am curious as to whether any one else on the board has experienced a similar problem. I know that there are those out there who believe that this is a problem inherent to Buffets especially those of a newer vintage (as opposed to Selmers as one well known Selmer player told me). But, I cannot believe that this is how the instrument is supposed to play. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Also, on an entirely different matter... I am curious as to anyone's experience with the new Backun bass clarinet bell modification that they offer. I was totally blown away by their Bb Clarinet bell (a "2nd" quality one no less). I am wondering if it will be worth the expense to send them my bell. Again, I only know of a Selmer player using this mod, so if you have any insight particularly as it relates to a Buffet, I would really like to hear about it.
Thanks...this forum is really the best isn't it?
Adam
"There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
-Frank Zappa
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2005-04-17 13:17
when I first compared german and Boehm Bass clarinets, I remarked, thst in the middle of the clarion all Boehms are more difficult to play.... if you use "normal" clarinet embouchure, even if you have two register keys. After some praxis with my buffet 1193-2, these notes work well. Here in the forum you can find some hints and tricks for practicing...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-04-17 14:17
When I compared Buffet and Selmer bass clarinets I found that these notes are harder to play on the Buffet. Even when I have a hard time playing thwse notes, they are not stuffy at all (I have a Buffet low C too), so it sounds like something is wrong.
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2005-04-17 14:31
Take a lesson with a professional and have him/her play the horn.
My experience with the latest Buffet is that it is the easiest bass clarinet to play ever made, especially in the clarion area you describe.
Post Edited (2005-04-17 14:33)
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Author: William
Date: 2005-04-17 15:21
I was fortunate to have several Prestige low C bass clarinets to audition, and I think that I selected "the one" that was best--for me, that is...... Regarless, it has been my experiance that G# & A (5's) are the first notes to suffer if: 1) there is even the slightest leak (and with bass clarinets mecanizms, that is a contant threat) & 2) if the reed is not positioned properly. I use a Legere 3.0 on a Walter Grabner CXBS mouthpiece (Vandy Optimum w/parallel rail insert) and find that those notes play best when the tip is positioned slightly lower than the tip of the mpc. If your instrument is relatively "leak free" and your reed is good, G# and A 5 should sing quite nicely.
BTW some fingerings that I like:
C#6 R X00/000 or F#4 + R
D6 R 000/000
D#6 R 000/000 + "throat" Ab
E6 TR (half hole)XXX/000 rh Eb
F6 G#5 fingering (overblown to harmonic F6)
F#6 A5 fingering--overblow to harmonic
G6 Bb5 fingering--overblow to harmonic
Even if you never have to use them, they are fun to learn. Good day!!!
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-04-17 18:44
I purchased a used Buffet Prestige to low C just about the same time you got yours and had some interesting initial problems with it too. First, I strongly endorse the suggestion to get a Grabner mouthpiece, I have a CX-BB and use it with a Rovner ligature and standard cheap 2.5 Ricos. That made a world of difference over the Precision mouthpiece that works so well on the old Conn. BTW, IMHO Vandoren reeds do not work well with this setup, the seem to chirp on attack.
I did have adjustment problems and now the first thing I do after putting the horn together is play a 1/1 Clarion Bb5, if it works and is clear you've got a chance. The other thing to do when playing a Clarion A5 is to go around with your right hand and push down on everything that should be closed, if you have a leak you may spot it this way. A light stick, cigarette papers and a screw driver should be part of the accessories delievered with all bass clarinets.
I think my horn has a beautiful Clarion register from D5 to C6 (almost sax like if you loosen your emboushure a bit) but have the feeling that B4 to C#5 are a bit resistive.
My biggest problem with the horn was the mouthpiece angle and the angle of my right hand. Morrie Backun made a new little neck piece so that the mouthpiece is now at a more classic bass angle and the horn sits higher in front of me.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-04-18 01:33
I have to agree - its tough to say whether this is a leak or some reed/embouchure issue. These are probably the most diffucult notes clarion notes on any bass clarinet, and trying to squeeze them out like you would on a Bb when they won't speak well will get you into trouble in a hurry.
One thing you can do on a bass with a leak in this range is use your right hand to probe the likely leak canidates by simply pressing on the suspect pads, of which there are relatively few.
Check the "lower" register key, the throat G#, A, and side keys. Also check the bridge Eb key - it could just be an assembly or adjustment issue on that (though usually issues there show up either lower or with Eb or Bb itself.)
Bill - I just had to ask - do you adjust your Vandorens back to even strength on both sides? Vandorens tend to favor one side a little - on the bass I think its just manufacturing more than a philosophical choice. But that unevenness is the classic cause for that kind of chirp. A little judicious work with sandpaper tends to solve in a big hurry.
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-04-18 01:45
I agree that the mouthpiece makes a huge difference. I am using a Selmer C* modified by David McClune. (His S1 facing.) This all by itself opened things up and I cannot imagine playing now with out it. I use Grand Concert reeds, strength 4 with the Vandoren Optimum Ligature plate that looks like a wave (not the four dots, not the one with the two rails on either side.)
I have tried pressing keys down with my right hand and have not had any results. It could very well be an embouchure issue.... Any further comments or ideas?
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-04-18 18:29
What we've been hinting at is that getting these notes out on a Bass is different that it is on a Bb.
On the Bb you tighten your embouchure and firm up your support to get these notes out. This will kill you on the Bass. You need to "round out" your embouchure and firm up the sides while dropping your jaw a little to get these notes to speak clearly.
Though its your mouth, etc. a 4 strength Rico GC is perhaps just a tad too hard. Have you tried a 3.5?
I'd say to find the reed strength that allows you to speak clearly on all notes with a good response. If the softer reeds make too reedy of a sound, soften up your ligature.
Its certainly worth trying.
As a trend, the bigger the clarinet, the less it respects the use of force. On a contra, you are reduced to asking nicely for each note. Forget demands of any kind.
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Author: mystery science dieter
Date: 2005-04-18 18:47
>>>On the Bb you tighten your embouchure and firm up your support to get these notes out.<<<
You do? Someone better revive Mr. Bonade and tell him he was wrong.
>>>As a trend, the bigger the clarinet, the less it respects the use of force.<<<
Can't agree with this either, sorry.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-04-18 19:35
>>>On a contra, you are reduced to asking nicely for each note. Forget demands of any kind.
I don't ask nicely. I demand the note to speak.
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Author: jack
Date: 2005-04-19 05:37
Erdinet,
From my experience in trying many new Buffet and Selmer Bass Clarinets, the condition they are in from the factory, in terms of adjustment and playability, is just awful. I mean, really pathetic, shamefully so. I finally got a one year old 1193, that played beautifully, or at least the notes that played sounded good to me. A very good local repairman pronounced the instrument to be in fine shape. Nevertheless, I had devilish problems with the notes you are mentioning. The bottom line: Make sure that the index finger of your left hand is covering the little hole in the B key (above the staff). If it is covering that little hole, (which I, at least, call a "whisper key") and those notes still do not sound, than there is only one possible solution to your problem: You need to send it to the Brannens and let them overhaul it ("Brannenize it") as they did to mine. Than, Presto, it plays perfect.
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-04-19 22:18
Thanks for all the great input everyone! I did find a small leak when I tried the 1 and 1 Bb fingering and fixed that. It cleared up what I would guess is about 90% of my problem. Still, I don't feel 100% on the notes I mentioned.
The repair person I am using is quite good and I can go in and work with him quite extensively. Being in the greater NYC area I can take advantage of the many great techs that are close by. But, one day I hope to find out the big deal with Brannen first hand.
Being a doubler (who teaches full time in a public school), I do not have a whole lot of time to devote to only bass clarinet for most of the year. It seem to me that my problem is a viscious combination of the state of the instrument, embouchure, and sound (or rather lack thereof) bass clarinet technique.
Now, has any one had any first hand exerpience with the Backun Bass clarinet bell?
Adam
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Author: jack
Date: 2005-04-20 05:47
A guy at one of the booths (not the Backun booth) at the '04 Int'l Clarinet Conf had a Buffet Bass Clarinet and a Backun bell. He was kindof showing it off and would trade back and forth between the stock bell and the Backun bell. There was no question in my mind but what the Backun bell made a huge, not small, but huge, difference in the quality of the sound. The Backun barrel made the sound much more involving and full. So much so that the stock bell suddenly seemed to sound small and amateurish. A handfull of the top bass clarinet players at the conference had the Rossi bell and they absolutely swear by them. I will probably get a Backun bell myself. The Rossi's are much more expensive and not made unless Rossi gets suitable wood. The Backun's are much smaller, they look sort of ridiculous seeing as how small they are. I suppose that the sound has more to do with the acoustics built into the bell, rather than the fact that it is made of wood.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-04-20 14:33
Erdinet, now that you have 1/1 Bb fixed and things are better but not what you want out of a $8000 horn you likely still have a small leak in the upper section plateau keys. Worst offender in my experience is that big vent (right below the G# key) that closes when you play clarion A5. The upper section can be easily vacuum tested with a couple of corks and some plastic tubing (your chemistry lab should have the stuff) and I do it every now and then when I feel things are not right. If you set up a vacuum with your mouth you should be able to release the plateau keys and they should stay down for a while. If they pop right up or you turn blue trying to create a vacuum you've still got a leak and need to find it.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2005-04-20 15:18)
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