 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2005-04-10 04:04
The music I have for the Brahms Clarinet Trio is for an A clarinet. If I am playing the piece "for my own pleasure," is there any reason/ need to transpose? Thanks---
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-10 04:07
Oh my gosh! You MUST play in on the correct instrument that it was written for!!! ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif) You must, you must, you must!
![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-10 05:43
why would you transpose it if you are playing it just for fun (without the piano or cello, I assume you mean)? Just play it. People often practice or even perform the Mozart concerto on Bb Clarinet (with piano), and Fantasy Pieces comes in multiple version for Bb Clarinet (with the clarinet transposed, and a different version with the piano transposed instead). Obviously, it would be best to play it on an A clarinet, but I would say your better to practice the written pitches on a different clarinet than to try to play the whole then in a different key (particularly if you ever plan to actually perform it on the A clarinet - then you'd have to relearn the whole then in the original key!)
Just play the piece and enjoy it, and GOD forbid, have some fun!
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-10 06:39
Correct instrument only, please. Clarinet in A with an obsolete German key system. Reed tied on with string (organic string: nothing grown using modern insecticides or herbicides, and above all no nylon). Make sure there are no loudspeakers in the room - these may disturb the acoustic. If a plane flies over, you must stop playing and perform ritual cleansing before restarting.
Just be glad you don't play the bassoon or the horn. Virtually all modern bassoons and horns are of German design, and sound quite radically different from the French designs familiar to Ravel, Debussy etc. Certainly the difference in tone quality is hugely greater than that between a Bb clarinet and an A. That is why you never ever hear of any bassoon or horn player playing French music.
....
I am a great fan of the movement towards authentic instruments and performance practice. You only have to listen to one of the "traditional" performances of a Bach oratorio, for example, to hear how far we have come. But let's not be too obsessive about it.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-10 07:39
this piece has quite a few prominant low Es.... not possible to transpose this on to the Bflat clarinet unless you have a "full Boehm" clarinet
donald
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2005-04-10 07:59
If you have an A clar play it on the A. If you don't and you're playing the clar part on your own without the other trio members there can be no harm in playing it on Bb and no need to transpose.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-10 10:18
If you are trying it with the other 2, the only pleasure will be yours 
Here's why not to transpose:
If I write a C scale for A Clarinet, it is very, very different sounding than playing a B scale on the Bb Clarinet. The timbre and lay of the notes are completely different.
So play the Brahms on your Bb alone and enjoy it.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-04-10 15:52
Perhaps you've answered your own question?
"Author: wjk (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 2005-04-10 02:33
Karl Leister's tone on Brahm's Clarinet Trio is peerless in my opinion---he also blends fabulously with the other players---any insight into such an amazing performance?"
You love Leister's tone, and he is playing on an A clarinet, as Brahms has specified. It's a good idea to get that A clarinet sound in your ear when you practice.
I have always stressed to my students to practice on the correct instrument. It is even more important to perform on the correct instrument, and certainly take auditions using the instrument specified by the composer. When you actually play in an orchestra, or with a good chamber music group, you can then decide for yourself, which instrument you prefer to use. But for early practice time, while learning a piece like the Brahms trio, it is important to "hear" the correct timbre of the instrument that is specified.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-04-10 16:45
Brahms Clarinet Trio requires certain timbre and certain note which is not available on Bb clarinet. Low E on A clarinet is very important.
In orchestra repertoire, we transpose some of passages due to some difficulties such as capability of smooth legato (Brahms Sym. no1), impossibility of switching clarinets---only one or two bars rest to switch (Many on Mahler), when switching in cold temperature---especially, cold A clarinet sounds awfully flat!!, and so on. However, Brahms Clarinet Trio and Quintet are different situation. Need an A clarinet.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-04-11 02:22
I think wjk was wondering (he'll correct me if I'm wrong) if he should play the work on his B-flat clarinet (without the other two parts). Go for it ... it's just beautiful music. You'll come into serious problems if you want to add the others without an A - but you know that, of course.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-12 02:47
talk about instrument selection based on timbre and what not is all fine and good theoretically, but if you don't have an A clarinet (I'm assuming you don't), then your choices are either play it on Bb or don't play it at all. I'd much rather enjoy a musical masterpiece a half step higher than intended, rather than just never touch it to start with.
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-12 14:00
It would be pretty tricky to play all the low E's written for the A clarinet on the Bb clarinet...maybe you could somehow create a mechanism for the Bb which allows you to play it on your clarinet..
The low half step below the Bb low E is missing and this note is all over the Brahms...why not have the Cello and piano play it up a half step?
My opinion is you really need an A clarinet to play this..there are a bunch of low E's on the A clarinet in this piece...how can anyone attempt to play the Brahms trio when you are missing the long low E?
David Dow
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-14 03:31
It is my impression that the original poster didn't intend to perform it, just to play around on it (I'm assuming this from the phrase "for my own pleasure"). So all the concerns with concert pitch are obsolete (and no new mechanisms will be required).
DDow, are you being serious or just being sarcastic, trying to prove a point? I could understand arguments on timbral grounds, as that (arguably) does make a difference, but the whole transposition to maintain concert pitch argument doesn't even make sense...
I've frequently practiced the Mozart Concerto on Bb when I left my A at home (gasp! in high school, before I had an A clarinet, I even competed with the Mozart at solo/ensemble on a Bb clarinet!). It didn't hurt me at all. It's much more important to practice the proper fingerings and technical patterns than to maintain concert pitchs when playing "for one's own pleasure"...
Am I missing something here?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-14 12:01
Dear "the clarinetist"
Mozart wrote in the title Concerto for Clarinet and Orchestra in A Major and after we usually see K622. Thats a pretty good indicator of Mozart's ideas...
Now, I am not against anyone playing or doing anything they want. HOWEVER, IF A Bb clarinet student is gonna practice more because they like the piece, then I am all for it. Works like the Clarinet Concerto, Brahms Trio and Quintet are great works no matter the tonality...however, at a later date I am sure if they stick to the clarinet they will want an A to perform them!
I also know Boosey published a version on Bb which my students use at times...now follows my personal feelings as a musician and professional.
The Mozart clarinet concerto I definitely feel loses something once it goes up a half step...!!! After a lifetime of playings and listening to this work...(I am performing this again in the Fall) my ears are accustomed to the tonality of A Major and prefer it! When Wolfgang Amadeus wrote the music he intended the Concert key of A...no matter what the horn your playing...(even a Bb with a low e.)
There are also those who can't tell the difference in a half step..(they will usually require ear training at some point.)
Now, If you want any further amplification of that there is none....its rather like getting used to a certain brand of coffee over another. I also respect the wishes of Mozart and don't use the A for the Kegelstatt Trio(here the Bb is intended.)
In the Beethoven symphonies where the C clarinet is written I use the Bb, for I just can't find the C clarinet to my liking...but I transpose this rather than play it in orchestra untransposed!
There is also a wonderful story of Herb Blayman(while at Utah) and Abravanel doing Schubert C Major 2cd movement...apparently Herb had an A part written in front of him but decided to try it on the Bb clarinet....
Abravenel stopped the orchestra and pointed to Blayman and said "what clarinet are you on?"
Blayman replied..."the Bb"
Abravenel said "On the A please!"
So it is sometimes not just clarinetists...
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-04-14 12:06)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-14 13:23
Ok, and there are stories where the conductor (a noted one) tells the Clarinetist to play the piece on another Clarinet, and the Clarinetist pretends to change the Clarinet, proceeds to play the exact same thing and the conductor suddenly loves it.......
Pitch is important, but always secondary to the timbre of the notes being played *(assuming that of course the other instruments are also playing in that key!).
Yes, different pitches have different qualities, but different timbres of fingerings are 100% more noticible.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-14 14:31
I really don't feel that DDow is being sarcastic....or that he ever is. Play it any way you want to wjk and on any horn you want to......whatever gives you pleasure.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-04-14 15:30
Professionals do what they have to do. Amateurs do whatever they want.
If someone has reached the level of even touching the Mozart concerto, the Brahms Trio or Quintet and being serious about it's time for them to buy an A clarinet anyway.
Alphie
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-20 05:38
"When Wolfgang Amadeus wrote the music he intended the Concert key of A..."
Actually he started writing it in the key of G. When and why (and even IF!) he changed it, we don't know!
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