 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-03-19 17:40
I'm looking at the sleeve of an LP (remember those) of the Gran Partita, recorded by Harnoncourt on modern Viennese instruments. The bassoons and string bass (built in 1610!) look normal enough; the oboes, clarinets and horns are the characteristic Viennese instruments.
What intrigues me is the basset horns. I can't even work out whether they are German or Boehm instruments, but what I can see is that one of them has some odd-looking keywork high up on the left-hand side. It looks a bit like the upper register key on an oboe. The other basset horn doesn't have it, and has different keywork for the left little finger.
The players are Hans-Rudolf Stalder and Elmar Schmid: I don't know which is which, but the one with the odd-looking keywork has a beard.
Anyone know the story behind these instruments? Is there such a thing as a Viennese basset horn?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-19 20:27
Hans-Rudolf Stalder and Elmar Schmid are both Swiss and play Boehm clarinets. I presume the basset horns used are also Boehm instruments. I'll try to find out...
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-20 13:30
Hi David - I'm somewhat disappointed that you have had no more than Liq's response to your inquiry, back into early history, as I read your questions. Have your read Rendall's Chap. X [10], also Al Rice's "Classical and Baroque" clarinet ?? Along with what Baines and Brymer have recorded, that's the best I can suggest. Other BC/BH'ers PLEASE help, this is of interest to many of us "modernists". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-20 13:54
Each brand of modern basset horn has some kind of unique key system - usually it is a matter of how the "basset" notes below low E are operated.
For example, the Leblanc horn has one right hand thumb key for activating (ie: closing) the low C pad on the bell; two right hand pinky keys for low C#/Db and D#/Eb; and one left hand pinky key for low D. Closing a low pad will automatically close all the higher pads above it (including E and F) - what Newhill calls the "ultimate in automation."
Variations might include more right thumb keys to activate the low notes - I think German systems tend to emphasize thumb keys, like a bassoon.
As for mechanism on the upper joint, many basset horns (such as the Leblanc) have a double register mechanism that looks complicated. I'm not sure if that's what you're seeing in the album photo. Otherwise, there isn't really much difference between the basset horn and clarinet key work at the upper end.
Of coure, my only hands on experience is with the Leblanc basset horn that I own. Buffet, Selmer and german system users will have other ideas to offer.
As for Viennese brands, Hammershmidt or some other oehler/german system would probably be played, but that's jsut speculation.
Post Edited (2005-03-20 14:07)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-20 15:16
Actually the Leblanc "double register mechanism" is a vent for throat Bb that duplicates the third LH trill key, providing a clear (unstuffy) Bb. It doesn't have any function in changing registers, as it is activated by the A key. The Stubbins/Kaspar mechanism for Bb clarinet has the same exact function.
My beef with the Leblanc Bassets is that the R and LH pinky keys for the "basset notes" are exactly the opposite fom those on the low-c Leblanc bass clarinets! Forget about intuitive crossover--drove me crazy!
Reminds me about the old gag about the Guy Lombardo band: Supposedly the saxes were to tune up in one room, the brass in another--fraternization strictly forbidden!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-12 13:33
It took me a while, but I finally found out...
The basset horn played by Elmar Schmid (the one with the beard) on this recording is a Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm instrument. The one played by Hans-Rudolf Stalder is a Leblanc basset horn.
A little anecdote that Elmar Schmid told me about this recording:
Apparently the Wiener Mozart-Bläser (with their two Swiss basset horn players) met up at the recording studio. Harnoncourt immediately started rehearsing and recording the piece in the studio (without any prior rehearsal). Due to his conducting technique (which is unclear at the best of times!), they misundrstood his tempo at the begining of the Allegretto section of the 5th movement. They all started playing slower than Harnoncourt had intended, so he immediately started beating faster to get them up to speed. This weird accelerando appears on the recording!
Despite these "flexible" tempi, there is some wonderful playing on this recording, and Harnoncourt still has the best ideas in my opinion!
Post Edited (2005-04-12 13:34)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-04-12 14:15
I remember seeing a TV broadcast of a German orchestra (probably Berlin) that had a closeup of the bass clarinet player, who was playing aGerman instrument. I saw the same sort of register key mechanism, which stuck out a substantial distance to the side and up to the level of the upper key on the neck. I suppose it was designed that way to get the necessary leverage to make the register mechanism operate reliably.
I've never seen one in person, and haven't been able to find a photo on the web. If anyone has one, please post a link.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-12 14:26
Good job,LiQ....and fascinating anecdote. Ah, liners!
Bob Draznik
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-12 15:10
Dear David
You are quite lucky to have that recording...from what I remember the clarinets and bassetts on that are particularly good with great dynamics to boot.
As to the recording it is sadly not available on CD which is a crying shame. The finale is very finely played with great gusto!
The only alternative in the catologue right now which I am a fan of is the Chamber Orchestra of Europe with great playing from Richard Hosford..they are also conductorless. Maybe thats why it is so fine.
David Dow
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-12 15:51
I've got a Wurlitzer basset horn right here, so I could take a photo if anyone is interested. But I don't know how to add a photo as a link here?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-12 18:36
Thanks for the link Liqourice...I have just marked it and will be ordering it soon...]
get in touch with Mark Charette and he would probably put it up...
thanks
David Dow
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-12 19:54
Liqourice- thanks for the great anecdote, that's the stuff that makes checking out the BB worthwhile!
the Wurlitzer Basset Horn that you've got- does it have an automatic register exchange (like a saxophone or modern bass clarinet), does it have a Bflat/reg key exchange.... or does it have the "manual register key exchange" where you have two keys for the thumb and use a different one depending on which notes you're playing?
donald
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2005-04-13 13:17
The Chamber Orchestra of Europe is a fine recording, but if you like it natural check out the wind soloists of the Orchestra of then Age of Enlightenment it has sooo much energy and life and plus the Clts and Bassets are amazing.
If anyone is interested the players were:
Tony Pay 1st
Barnaby Robson 2nd
Colin Lawson 1st Basset
Michael Harris 2nd Basset
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-13 16:00
About a month ago, listening on Perf. Today [NPR] via KRPS [Pitt. State, KS] , as they were introducing the St. Paul Orch Wind Ensemble, announcing Ser. #10 For 13 Winds , Mozart, K 361, I got with it and recorded it all, except for a first minute or two, on cassette tape. Just played it again, fine music/horn combinations. Several years ago, at our OK Mozart June "festival" [rite hear in River Citi], a prof. from Ok. St. Un. [Music School] gave a "showcase" lecture/CD-playing [1 hour] demonstration of it to a small audience, which I much enjoyed. As I recall he had a number of CD's of it and showed bits and pieces of various ensemble interpretations. So, FWIW, if some of you "enthusiasts" would wish to pursue it further, I'll try to determine if he wrote/recorded any of it. Out of an abundance of BH interest, I measured the bore of my Selmer-Paris B series alto cl, at 15.65mm [1 mm more than small Bb's], will have to look up what a true BH is. My other AC [old Pedler] is 17+ as I believe the Leblancs are. Mps make a diff. in sound "character" of course. GREAT FUN, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-04-13 22:03
After a great tour with Ensemble Zefiro, Italy playing the Gran Partita we finally recorded the piece in Sion Switzerland. During the first Trio of the first Menuetto for clarinets and basset horns the rest of the group took a break. One of them fell asleep on the floor in the studio and started snoring so badly that we had to stop in the middle of a take, twice. After finishing the Trio the producer asked us to look up to the control room window to get our first revieuw. There was another colleague mooning trough the window.
It was springtime, we had a great tour, great people, great music, what more can I ask for in life.
Alphie
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-04-13 22:04
Can anyone post a picture of the said beasts?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-14 08:30
Diz wrote: "Can anyone post a picture of the said beasts?".
Assuming that you are referring to the basset horns, not Alphie's colleagues ... I will try to scan in the LP sleeve photo tomorrow and post it here. Mark/Glenn - is that OK from a copyright point of view?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-15 21:59
In my post [4th above] I gave my measureable Selmer alto bore dimensions as 15.65 mm , it should have been 16.65 mm, or 2 mm greater than the smaller Bbs, but still some 1 + mm less than some other altos. My thot is that the smaller bore [plus a Bb {or A or G !} cl mp] will give a "more-nearly" basset horn sound. Comments? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-04-16 02:07
Don,
it's a nice thought, but I think the "more nearly" basset horn sound results more from the ability of the player than the bore and mouthpiece.
if played well, a large bore basset horn will sound just as bassety as a small bore, and a poorly played small bore instrument won't give basset joy.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-16 14:33
You are prob. rite, L B [#2 ?], with several hours of "play-time" this weekend, I may try to play my alto using a Bb, 15.0mm bore glass mp, and expect "strange" tonality !! I have found that putting the bell from my Mazzeo Bundy into the alto's bell converts my low Eb into a "decent" low D, the B H's lowest note also. Fun, ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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