 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2005-04-12 18:49
A few rings are loose on my R-13---one tech wants to "shim them"---is this advisable? Is it better to use the humistat for a while? Is a "ring press" a better way to tighten rings? One tech told me humidification won't help as wood "does not have memory." Is this correct?
Thanks!
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-04-12 18:55
It's dangerous to assemble your clarinet with loose rings - can lead to cracking.
My repair professional tightens loose rings by wedging in a small amount of cloth to make a secure fit. I've heard of other materials being used (paper, for example).
I don't know about shimming or ring presses.
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Author: dummer musiker
Date: 2005-04-12 19:07
I had a small amount of paper wedged on mine. Works great. Its bad to have loose rings.
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-04-12 19:56
My tech used a ring press on a couple of my older clarinets, it worked just fine. When I reworked the old alto I shimmed the rings with brass sheeting that I got at Lee Valley Tools, it comes in various thicknesses and was easy to use. I don't think I would use anything that trapped moisture like paper or cloth. If you shim it must go all the way around or you will create an uneven ridge/pressure point which could cause cracking.
Orange peels in the case for a few days helps raise the humidity and tighten rings. Best way to keep the rings tight, practice 4 or 5 hours a day.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-12 20:59
Out of 30 some clarinets I've worked on as a novice I've only encountered one where after extended humidification the wood didn't tighten up a loose metal ring. My impression is that there may be such rare instances where the wood doesn't regain its "oginal" volume i.e doesn't have a memory. In my opinion temporary shimming of a loose ring is just asking for trouble......but I'm no expert.
Bob Draznik
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-04-12 22:37
Always try to rehydrate the wood before shimming or using a press. There is a risk of a crack developing if not. In other words, if a ring is loose and the wood regains moisture and the ring tightens, everything is okay. If a ring is tightened and then the wood tries to expand and has nowhere to expand outwardly, it will lead to stress in another direction, hence causing a crack. This is especially true for bells which are much thinnner. Rehydrate, then if the ring is still loose, shrink or shim just a little and let things settle.
jbutler
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-04-12 22:56
Bob, my experience which only covers about 10 loose rings is somewhat different from yours. First, in all but one case did a ring not tighten up after 2 or 3 days in a baggy with orange peels and once tight if you played the horn regularly it stayed tight. However, once you let the horn sit for 3 or 4 weeks about 50% of the rings loosen up again, in other words, maybe the wood does have a memory.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-13 02:56
Yes, this suggests that the rings need to be adjusted to the circumstances the instrument is subject to, bot climate, micro-climate, and regularity of being played, just as the fit of tenons often needs to be re-adjusted on a new instrument after some use.
Assuming the fit DOES need to be altered....
Shrinking under a press seems an extreme measure to me, and difficult to reverse. Also, very few technicians would now have this very expensive press equipment and accessories.
Using bits of paper as a filler seems to me a lot less satisfactory than using shellac as a filler. I remove the ring, clean the surfaces, heat the ring, melt shellac inside it, and push it back, wait until it has partly cooled, and 'push' any excess glue off with a thumb nail, before it becomes brittle. Never had a problem yet.
But of course there are many ways to skin a cat.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-04-13 06:22
I "inherited" a ring press a few months ago. It's great for the large bell ring but very rarely used on tenon rings. In my neighborhood the accepted method is to use cheesecloth as shim material. It's quick, not too messy and seems to hold up as well as anything else. Also, it's fairly easy to un-do and start over if you mess up. But, as Gordon says, there are many ways to do this job.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-13 11:54
bill...the horn I mentioned was a very old one from the early 1900s. Perhaps wood can age or be aged to the point where its ability to regain moisture is impeded severely.
Bob Draznik
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-04-13 19:23
Swedging is the long term solution... but it is advisable to wait until the weather warms up to figure out if you really need to take that measure. All of my rings were loose on my clarinets, but now that it's getting warmer and more humid, I think things are getting better.
--CG
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-13 22:26
WJK,
If you don't own a copy yet, you might want to look at purchasing "The Clarinetist's Notebook" (I believe it's Volume I that deals with clarinet repair and adjustment). I shimmed my OWN rings based on that book (which was written by an apprentice of Moenigg) and they've been tight ever since.
I wrapped thin slices of (in this case) magazine paper around the wood, then pressed the ring on as much as I could with my hand, then turned it over and pressed the joint against a notebook to get it ALL the way on, and then trimmed any excess paper (very carefully!) with a razor blade. Seems to have worked!
This (by the way) was directly after oiling the clarinet with the rings on to make sure that it was in it's fully 'expanded' state (I didn't want to press the rings on tight, then oil it, and then have something crack due to further expansion or have the rings not even fit because it had to be oiled in the first place!)
Alexi
[EDIT]
http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm
This is a link to where you can find that book from Van Cott (a BBoard sponsor). By Robert Schmidt. I bought my book from him and the process went quickly and as smooth as glass.
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2005-04-13 22:33)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-04-14 02:25
Just one little point. Forcing paper or fabric in the gap would tend to compress the timber under the ring, slightly reducing the INSIDE diameter of teh timber as well. Using a press would do likewise, because to be a tight fit, the ring would have to be OVER-compressed in oder to be firm when released. It finally relies on PRESSURE (hence friction) to be secure, rather than any adhesive property.
It is very common for sockets to be non-cylindrical i.e. slightly reverse-conical because of over-tight rings, which is probably responsible for quite a few tenons jamming in sockets.
This is why, IMHO, using shellac, or another reasonably rigid filler with slight adhesive properties, is a preferable procedure.
Post Edited (2005-04-14 13:16)
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2005-04-15 04:22
Do I recall that you live on Long Island? If so, you should have all the humidity you need in a month or so! (And especially if you don't run air conditioning in the place where the instrument is stored.)
Seriously, its the end of a long winter with drying central heat, provide some moisture in the case now, and contragirl is right, wait for the change of seasons.
(I know my calandar says "Spring!" but I live in coastal New Jersey and we seem to have only two seasons, warm and sticky, and cold and windy. Today the temp was in the high 40s - low 50s with 25 mph winds.)
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Author: Pascal
Date: 2011-02-15 23:48
I'm having the same problem (loose tenon rings) but I don't have any shellac... could I use contact adhesive?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-16 04:02
I felt my ears burning!
My stance on shimmng loose rings is to have it done as it's better to have tight socket rings than loose ones.
Rings that are only slightly loose in that they can be relatively easily rotated or removed by hand but aren't rattling or falling off can be secured by thoroughly cleaning (degreasing) the recess and the inside of the ring and then applying a layer of superglue to the recess, letting it go off and then replacing the ring.
You could do this while the superglue is still wet but you do risk it getting on the joint surface which could prove difficult to remove (but you can use the heel of a reed to remove it).
Anything more than that (very loose or rattling rings) will require shimming - either with paper of adequate thickness or cloth depending on how loose the ring is.
Should the socket become tight (constricted) at the entrance after shimming so it causes the lower tenon ring to bind on the way in as well as causing the upper tenon ring to bind, then the socket can be trued up by removing sufficient wood from the constricted area so the tenon fits well - neither binding nor wobbling.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-16 05:20
I've tried shimming with all sorts of materials and prefer shimming with shellac for several reasons.
- It fills the space exactly the correct amount, which is impossible with a shim like paper or other similar material, which at best is a guesstimate and can over compress the wood.
- It will fill the exact amount all the way around, unlike a soild shim (paper, nylon, etc.) which can then distort the wood. Same problem (and also the one in 1) is possible when shrinking the ring to fit. No extra fitting of the tenon would be necessary too.
- It is very solid and gives great support, unlike most other heat melting glues which are slightly flexible even when dry. Also being a glue, this adds with even more support since it is gluing with a relatively large contact area all the way around.
- It is a relatively inexpensive and fast repair, plus easy to re-do if necessary when moving to a place with different weather (though rarely necessary).
Post Edited (2011-02-16 19:01)
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-16 07:45
I very much agree with Gordon. If the fit is only slightly loose, the best way is using some glue applied inside the ring (I would not use hot glue as it polymerizes too fast). When put in place the ring will distribute the yet liquid glue evenly thereby avoiding any alterations of the desired ideal circular shape. After polymerization the glue technically serves as a washer providing even distribution of centripetal force, which is required to withstand the reverse forces occuring when assembling the clarinet pieces.
Swedging may be an option if the ring is way too loose. However, as said, one must be warned for using a distorted ring as a consequence of uneven swedging.
Cloth or paper can never be as evenly distributed underneath a ring than a liquid "filler".
Best
Jo
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-02-16 16:49
I have yet to find a tenon ring on a wooden clarinet that does not respond to humidification. I take a pill bottle that will fit into the bell, use a hot nail to melt three or four holes just below the edge of the cap, and cut a piece of sponge to fit inside. Fill the sponge with water, shake out the excess, replace the cap, and store it in the case inside the bell. The only difficulty I have found is that I have to find some place else to store my clarinet stand. I even had one instrument that was developing several small cracks when I got it. Now, you have to know where they are in order to find them without a loupe. Of course, I live in the California Central Valley where having too much humidity is rarely a problem.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-02-16 17:54
After I had my A bell tenon socket crack filled (and ring shimmed), the lower joint did get stuck on it and it took me a couple hours to get it off (lots of rocking back and forth and praying I didn't break anything). I have to always make sure I cork grease it, but I've only had it get stuck one time since then.
First time getting stuck was New Years Eve. Not the way I wanted to celebrate the new year.
Rachel
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2011-02-16 18:19
This subject has been discussed before and like the last time it appeared here there were lots of suggestions on how to fix loose rings. First, get the clarinet some humidity. Place a dampit, small kitchen sponge or a damp paper towel in the case with the clarinet and allow it to absorb some water. The vast majority of clarinets will respond quickly and the rings will go right back to being tight. After that, make sure when it's dry outside you humidify the clarinet inside the case, spit is not an acceptable substitute for water.
If the rings are not tight after a few days, allow a repair shop to reduce them correctly to the right size where they will support the tenons properly and you will have metal against wood for the best support. If this is done correctly the support to the tenons will be the same as when the clarinet was new.
Do not throw orange peels into your case, it does almost nothing but make your case smell like garbage. The amount of moisture in a few orange peels is nothing compared to a simple and inexpensive dampit.
A ring shrinking press is not unusual here in the states, virtually all of the better repair shops have them and can use them correctly to do a terrific job.
Humidify first!
Scott Brodt
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Author: Pascal
Date: 2011-02-17 07:44
The rings in my clarinet are just slightly loose. I was about to fix it with contact adhesive but then decided to wait and buy some shellac and torch. But yes, even before that, I'll try leaving a damp sponge in the case for one or two days and see what happens. Thanks, everyone.
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-17 09:49
Hi Pascal:
Try the Stölzel-Glue, which can be purchased at Thomann's for 7 Euro.
http://www.thomann.de/de/stoelzel_polster_und_kork_zement.htm
I'm working with it on my clarinets using it for almost everything: Tenon and key corks, pads, as well as loose rings. It can be applied right out of the tube, dries slowly (24h), and can also be re-liquefied with heat. In my opinion, a nice shellac substitute.
Perhaps the easiest way to fix your slightly loose rings.
Best
Jo
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Author: Pascal
Date: 2011-02-23 15:42
SOLUTION: First, I have lightly oiled the inside completely (all parts and its joint cups) with the aid of a pipe cleaner. Next day I have cut a small piece of sponge cloth (say 4x8cm), dampened it in water, put it in the case close to a loose tenon. Closed the case and left the sponge there overnight. Next day I open the case and see that the tenon had expanded, the ring was tight again, and the sponge cloth was dry, almost hardened. Then I dampened it again and placed it near to another tenon and left it overnight. Same result. After a few days of care and patience, the instrument is in perfect shape. It only needed some humidity.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-23 17:32
Clean mating surfaces with acetone, apply gel-type (not the runny liquid type) "superglue" (cyanoacrylate adhesive) to the inside of the tenon ring, and install. Just make sure it doesn't squeeze out and make a visible mess on the body where it meets the ring.
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