 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-10 16:45
In a hope to move the discussion to an appropriate thread, let's discuss:
1. What is your opinion about playing transcriptions on clarinet of works written for other instruments and why?
2. How does this support or differ from the playing of transcriptions\arrangements in band\orchestra written for other ensembles or solo instruments?
3. Do you see any ethical dilemma involved in transcriptions?
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-04-10 17:12)
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-10 17:12
[1]My personal opinion is that transcriptions\arrangements are a natural response to the production of enjoyable music. I believe that my view is supported by the history of music, and indeed (if I may go here), mankind.
The Beatles write a song and the world begins to sing it. The next thing you know there are a cappella arrangements, acoustic guitar and voice, piano solo, orchestra, band, etc. [Wondering if I need to link an example of all of those as proof. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) ]
Modest Moussorgsky writes his Pictures at an Exhibition for solo piano. This piece was inspired by the death of a close friend of Moussorgsky (Victor Hartmann, a Russian artist and architect) after viewing the memorial showings of his works. Maurice Ravel later orchestrates it and it becomes a huge hit with audiences who today probably do not even know that it was originally for piano alone. [Talk about something intimately meant for one thing and made into something else.]
I forget who made the line famous, "Imitation is the highest form of compliment." Certainly that can be seen in music. The whole theme and variation genre that blossomed (for solo instruments) in the Romantic period of western music history is based on this idea. Transcriptions\arrangements to me from the original work is aligned with this same idea: spreading the enjoyment of music.
[2] I believe that full ensemble transcriptions\arrangements are exactly the same thing. I believe they are motivated by the same love of the original creation and afford the same compliment to the composer as solo transcriptions.
[3] I do not believe there is any ethical dilemma involved in transcriptions. An instrument does not "own" the rights to a piece written for it. We create our own personal dilemmas when we think they somehow do.
When we hear the Brahms Sonatas played on a string instrument and may take offense, it is our own personal judgement, not some universal ethical issue involved. Often, our description of what bothers us about any said performance is really more about the performance than about the medium used to produce it.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-04-10 17:13)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-04-10 17:39
I pretty much agree with Robert.
1. I have no problem with that at all. I would rather even not know it is a transcribtion so I can listen to it and just hear if I think it's good music or not.
2. Not much difference, but this can add more to a piece than simply playing it on a different instrument.
3. Ethics got nothing to do with this.
Another example is Lutoslavsky's arrangment of a theme by Pagnini for two pianos. I just heard it for the first time yesterday and it is just an amazing piece.
I also have to add that this example (the Lutoslavsky arrangement) and your examples are different than playing the violin concerto on clarinet. Both Ravel and Lutoslavsky did so much more than just write it for different instruments. Ravel did an amzing orchestration and chose instruments that give the melodies a totally new feeling (a part played by trumpet sounds totally different than on piano for example). Lutoslavsky also added new and original harmony.
If you think you can add a new thing to the violin concerto, great. If not, but you still had fun playing it, learned a lot, and the audience enjoyed it, also good. It's not like you are going to record it, make a CD, and call it the holy grail of music (sorry to go back on the topic of the violin concerto).
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-04-10 17:47
I think Duke Ellington's quote, " If it sounds good, it is good." applys here.
I think beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
If Mozart played on a theramin sounds good to you, go for it.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-04-10 17:59
What about transcribing a work that is still covered by a copyright? You can transcribe anything in the comfort of your home for your own use. But what if I want to transcribe Desmond's 'Take Five' or the Nuclear Whales' 'Duke Ellington Medley' for my band to play every Friday night at J. J. Mahonies? It's too easy to do, but I don't see it as ethical. And it doesn't matter what instrumentation I use. Am I missing something here?
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2005-04-10 17:59)
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-10 18:06
Okay Jim, I agree with you there. Wherein copyright is concerned, rewriting someone else's work so you can make money off of it is not ethical without their approval. In my opinion.
But wherein it is ethical for a clarinet to play notes written for a violin, I think the question is absurd. Yet that is precisely what is suggested in the other thread.
Nice picture in your profile, btw. First one I've seen and I think I may have to find out how to do that. 
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-10 18:07
I actually had a piano player once refuse to play a piece I had transcribed for clarinet (1st movement of Faure Violin Sonata No. 1), on the grounds that she disliked transcriptions and that "there are plenty of good pieces written FOR the clarinet". My theory is that she just didn't want to learn the difficult piano part, but for the sake of argument, I'll assume she ACTUALLY had a problem with transcriptions....
Like everyone else, I have no problem with it and, in fact, think it can be a great way to expand the music horizons of your instrument. For example, I am learning to play the violin and in exploring it's repertoire (all of which is WAY to hard for me to play on the violin), I've played around with some of the pieces on clarinet. First of all, I think that the music written for violin tends to be (much of the time) much more exciting and virtuosic than the writing for the clarinet (although, with the exception of some double stop and extreme ranges), the clarinet can do just about anything a violin can do. I was playing through the 3rd movement of the Sibelius violin concerto on my clarinet the other day, and it was great! Really fun music, and in a style that I've not seen represented in the clarinet music. Secondly, it can lead to new techniques. I've explored a lot of different techniques trying to replicate the sound of double stops in violin music. Some have worked and some haven't, but it's definitely made me try new things that clarinet music has never required me to do. Additionally, it is a good way to fill in gaps in the repertiore. I have a CD of bassoon playing Brahms 1, Fantasy Pieces, and Prokofiev Sonata Op. 94. In the Booklet, the artists discusses how any bassoonist who wants to pursue a solo career (particularly in chamber music) must turn to transcriptions to find enough quality music to play. The viola, I believe, has often run into the same issues (I know that the Brahms and Reger Sonatas have both been transcribed, plus many more I'm sure). So I think that transcriptions, even if they are better on the original instrument, are an entirely valid and positive form of musical exploration.
As far as ensembles... I once played a band transcription of Rachmaninoff's C#minor prelude for piano. It was awesome. Not to mention all of the orchestral transcriptions for band.
I think the only ethical issue would be to stick, as much as possible, to the original feel of the piece. This doesn't mean you can alter it (particular if it is required to make it playable on your instrument). Like others have said, good music is good music. If a transcription turns it into bad music, then I think you've got a problem... Other than that, it's all good!
DH
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - could we argue that the Mozart Concerto is transcribed for clarinet? If so, this is would create a serious stumbling block for the anti-transcription camp... Just a thought
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-10 18:28
The only rule is that it should respect the original. Sometimes the more distant transcriptions work better than the obvious ones.
I have a CD of Bach - Art of Fugue mostly - played by a quintet of modern brass. These are transcriptions to a completely unauthentic instrumentation, but wonderful to hear.
I have heard (and switched off) many truly horrible recordings of baroque recorder sonatas played on a modern flute, with continuous crescendi and diminuendi and heavy vibrato on every note. That's hardly a transcription - the flute and the recorder are close cousins after all - the problem seems the attitude of some flute players that their instrument is so much better than the original that they want to show off what it can do. Fortunately this sort of thing is getting rarer.
I loathe and despise what Jacques Loussier does to Bach, not because he uses a piano to play harpsichord music, but because he has no respect.
To answer Robert's three questions:
1. I have no problem with transcriptions that respect the music. I enjoy the "Beethoven clarinet concerto". I occasionally play baroque sonatas on the clarinet, though I'm not sure I'd want to be heard doing so.
2. I am much less happy about full ensemble transcriptions - orchestra to brass band, say - but not for any purist reason. I just find they often don't work very well.
3. I see absolutely no moral problem with transcriptions, though I would respect the right of a living composer to restrict what can be done with his music.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-10 21:16
Ravel transcribed for Moussorgsky as he was most often too drunk to do it himself.
I don't see any problem with transcriptions in any circumstance - if they are done well.
The other part - "Okay Jim, I agree with you there. Wherein copyright is concerned, rewriting someone else's work so you can make money off of it is not ethical without their approval. In my opinion."
I agree with as it would also be illegal. So there would be recourse if the work was under copyright.
And if it isn't - it's fair game!
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-10 22:39
'Ravel transcribed for Moussorgsky as he was most often too drunk to do it himself.'
Pardon? I'm confused by that statement...
I'm with most on this topic...if it's out of copyright and you know what you're doing, go for it.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-11 00:08
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'Ravel transcribed for Moussorgsky as he was most often too drunk to do it himself.'
Pardon? I'm confused by that statement...
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O' come now, you're not drunk too? That's quite well known info.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-11 00:26
Not only was Mussorgsky drunk most of his adult life (vodka was his drink of choice)  he died of alcohol related illnesses ...GBK
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-04-11 02:20
David (Peacham) - I'd be interested to hear what you think of Angela Hewitt's playing of Bach keyboard music (on piano). I hope you don't put her in the same category as Loussier.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-04-11 02:37
I don't mind transcriptions usually...I actually LIKE Jacques Loussier...
My classical group is comprised of violin, clarinet, and accordion. We play string quartet arrangements of "famous Baroque themes" and the like for the typical "wedding" audience.
We also have been working up a Handel trio sonata which was originally for flute, violin, and continuo. The accordionist reads the "piano" part (it's an IMS edition...), I read the violin part, and the violinist reads the flute part.
We also have played through the Mozart Kegelstatt Trio. The violinist has to read some of the viola stuff up an octave, but in general, the piano part translates very well to the accordion.
Is it a transcription if one does not actually need to write out the "new" parts??? I assume so....
Katrina
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Author: marcia
Date: 2005-04-11 04:34
I have played many transcriptions in various forms. As long as the transcription stays true to the original pece I have no problem with it. I have played some however where the original almost disappears. There are some transcriptions I have heard that I don't care for ie. Brahms clarinet sonatas for strings, and the Beethoven violin concerto for piano (did Ludwig really write that himself??) but that is just personal preference.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-04-11 06:37
Brahms actually adapted his two clarinet sonatas for viola ... so that's as authentic and justifiable as I need to listen to them.
But I agree with you on the Beethoven fiddle conerto arranged for piano ... it's awful.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2005-04-11 06:38)
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-04-11 08:49
In my highschool music class, one of our alto-sax players did the same handel sonata as one of our flautists, and personally i thought that one of the movements suited the sax better! Their accompaniest though, seemed to think that playing music for any other instrument on sax was wrong and didnt sound good....but what else is there for classical sax players to play? Im going with the "if it sounds good then it is good "
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-11 10:21
Diz asked:
David (Peacham) - I'd be interested to hear what you think of Angela Hewitt's playing of Bach keyboard music (on piano). I hope you don't put her in the same category as Loussier.
I have no problem with Bach played on the piano; I've done it myself. I'm scarcely familiar with Hewitt's work, I think I've heard her once or twice on the radio. So far as I know she plays Bach, as many other pianists have done, in a way that respects Bach's intentions while adapting it to the peculiarities of the piano. No problem with that.
As I said, my problem with Loussier is not the use of a piano, it's his apparent belief that he can improve Bach by messing about with it. Maybe some pianists could, but he isn't one of them. I would dislike his work every bit as much if he used a harpsichord.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-11 11:43
I knew that Mussorgsky was a raging alcoholic...what confused me was the fact that Ravel was 6 when Mussorgsky died...
Just the way you put it seemed to suggest that Ravel would carry poor old Mussorgsky to bed, and sit finishing his orchestrations so that 'Master Mussorgsky' would not damage is reputation...lol
Now I read it again...I realise that Ravel wrote transcriptions/orchestrastions that Mussorgsky would have been able to write...if he hadn't spilt vodka all over his manuscript.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-04-11 11:52
there are alot of moments in the Mozart concerto where the piano transcription is awful as well...repeated sounds which require the luxuriant legato that strings can provide. I find that alot of things work from piano to orchestra better than the other way around.
As to Angela Hewitt I love here Bach but she uses a great variety of different transcriptions...Wilhelm Kempff made a bunch transcriptions from Bach works...( from Bach )and I have played these on piano as well and they are very well done.
As for transcritions from wind to wind I can't bear the Bassoon concerto of Mozart's on the clarinet. I find it just loses something in the change of registers...this is one of the key elements in any transcription. Does the work survive the change of instruments.
As to the Beethoven Violin concerto I prefer it on the violin but admire the artistry of it's progenitor...Mr. Michael Collins who is a fantastic artist. I also believe he no longer performs it.
As to transcriptions per se in the case of the Brahms Sonatas they are done by Herr Brahms and of course are sanctioned by Brahms...on the ground of Bach and many transcriptions we are in a bit more stew so to speak...
I also love the Gordon Jacob Concertino which is based on the works of Giuseppi Tartini and these fit the clarinet far more nicely than later romantic violin concertos...however, those are only opinions.
As to flute works on clarinet some are very good and others are quite bad...again registration and voicing are not always so easy to transcend.
A wonderful piece for clarinet and bassoon is the Richard Strauss Duet Concertino which has an excellent piano reduction. Again, a reduction is not a transcription but a very accurate replication of every note in the original score.
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-04-11 11:56)
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2005-04-11 15:38
I agree that there's nothing remotely ethical about transcriptions. I don't mind transcriptions so long as they're done well and with a goal pertaining to quality of music, even though some transcriptions will be good and others poor. From what I understand, transcriptions have been prevalent thoughout music's history with the great composers doing it for their own works as well as other's.
-JfW
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