 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-04-04 02:07
I'm sellng a couple clarinets(don't ask) to raise money for an alto sax. What I want to know is.....Buescher...King...York.....Conn.....Selmer....etc.
What is a C melody? Conn and others make them. What is the difference in embouchure? Any recommendations? Suggestions? Fingering differences? Help. I'm on a quest......
Gibson
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-04-04 02:10
C melody is a saxophone pitched in C. They are a rare sight to behold for the most part.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-04-04 02:36
"C" melodies were very popular back in the early part of the 20th century. Sometimes they were referred to as "parlor horns" because one could play off the piano music without transposition. Conn made a fairly decent C melody. The problem with the instrument in the current day is that most of the original mouthpieces have been lost and alto/tenor mouthpieces really don't tune well with the instrument. The embouchre is somewhat different, not as firm. The reeds, due to length and thickness, need to be softer in strength than what you are playing on clarinet.
Fingering saxophone is similar to the clarion register of the clarinet. The extreme low notes and upper notes are different. The sax uses an octave key rather than a register key, therefore, the low D and middle D(etc) are fingered the same with the addition of the octave key for the latter.
May I suggest if you are in the market for a used saxophone you look for a good used Yamaha YAS-23. I think they are the best on the market for the money. Vintage saxes can be okay, but they are just like vintage clarinets in that they will probably require a rebuild (unless already done) to get them playing correctly. Some of the better vintage instruments are: Conn M8s (naked lady model) , King Super 20, King Zephyr, certain Martins, Buescher 400's before 1960 (Selmer buy out) are good. Buescher has "snap" pads and a lot of indiscriminate techs unsoldered the bud in the key cup. Make sure if looking at a Buescher it has the orginal snap pads. You can get a lot of information form Steve Goodson's web site (Saxgourmet). Good luck on your quest.
jbutler
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-04-04 03:05
I'd second the choice of a Yamaha horn as a first sax; best value for money that you're likely to find. Even a slightly beaten up one (ex student use) can still be fixed up and will provide good service.
Once you've mastered the saxophone basics, don't stop there. Pick up tenor and baritone as well, as you're likely to be called to play any of the three in commercial music.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-04-04 03:09
Hard to beat the used Yamaha altos for value. I started out playing a Conn C-melody in 1954 (band director gave me oboe music) because some relative had one kicking around that I could use for free. Switched to clarinet in 1955.
The saxaphone majors in our Wind Symphony all play Selmer Paris, but they pay big bucks for them.
My son has played Yamaha alto and tenor. "Almost as good, a lot less money."
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-04-04 05:04
John,
A couple of questions regarding your question. What type of saxophone are you looking for? Is it an alto, tenor, bari, or something else? Also, you'll need to decide if you want new or old. There are a lot of great old horns out there, but you will have to search for them. The new horns being produced are great. There's a lot of selection and they all have a different feel. With the "feel" part said, you'll want to get as many different horns under your fingers to first see which one feels the best to you. I was a sax major myself in college and have played on quite a few different brands. The only brand that "felt" comfortable for me under my fingers was Selmer. The Yamahas played great, but didn't fit my fingers the way I liked. Currently, I play on a Series II alto and love it. I had a Mark VI and sold it to purchase the Series II. I know that some of you are thinking that this was blasphemy and all for the VI, but it was an old horn and the intonation on it wasn't that great. I had to work way too hard to play in tune. Not all old horns are bad, my '62 R13 plays wonderfully right now and the intonation is great!
I definetly second the suggestions of purchasing a used Yamaha. They're a great value. But I would recommend purchasing one that is new or built recently. Your chances of finding a good horn are greatly improved, IMHO. I base this on discussions with multiple repair techs who have said that Yamahas are great now, but when they were building saxes in the 70's and early 80's they were dealing with quality control issues that many upstarts are having or have recently had (Cannonball comes to mind, not to good to start, but currently much better). These issues are said to have been rectified.
To sum up my views in short (some stated above, some not):
- Buy something relatively new
- Student, intermediate, pro Yamaha's are excellent. They all feel different.
- Selmer Paris line of saxes are excellent. I've never been too impressed with the USA line.
- Get many different horns under your fingers and play them. See how they feel.
- Be wary of saxes produced in Taiwan. They're priced low for a reason.
- You can find good vintage horns, but you may end up paying a premium for them when you can have something equally as good for less.
-pat
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-04 12:14
The best, best bang for the buck currently is the Yamaha YAS 62 Silver Sax. You can get one new from the Woodwind Brasswind for under $1900
It isn't the best sax for under $3500, but under $2500 it can't be touched. Of course there are the vintage horns, but make sure that you don't end up with a sax that badly needs cleaning and you can't get the old mildew stink out of it.
I've had too many of those.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-04-04 13:46
i have a yas62 - its an excellent intermediate horn. i think i paid $1700 or so from ww&bw.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2005-04-04 15:43
John, I have a Conn C Melody Stencil, original mpc (I think). Sent you a msg offline.
Bob A
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-04-04 16:02
John,
Here's a link to Wade Walker's c-melody saxophone form. It should be helpful to you in getting all kinds of information about the c-melody.
http://mysite.verizon.net/res8o1o8/cmelody2.htm
Two sources for good quality vintage saxophones are vintagesax.com and junkdude.com. I've purchased horns from both and can vouch that they are honest, have good products at a reasonable price, and provide excellent customer service.
Feel free to write to me if you have more questions about the c-melody or vintage saxophones in general. I've spent quite a bit of time working on the c-melody as well as vintage soprano, alto, and tenor saxophones. Personally, I'm a big fan of 1930's Buescher saxophones.
Roger
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-04 16:28
John G - FWmy opinionIW, unless you are [want to be] a ''vintage" saxer [great comments J B !], I'd stay with an alto or tenor [for music to read-play, not have to transpose it to C], and get a more modern sax, 1950's+, so as to have Selmer's improvements, partic. for the botton [long] note's ease-of-playing. Many Student models are available inexpensively, just look in EBAY, Yammies, Vitos, Bundys, etc, not the "Asiatic cheapies" tho. They can all be tweaked for easy, good in-tune playing. Bari's are fun, but more expensive and HEAVY. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-04-04 17:15
i'm a Keilwerth player, personally. great horns. Cannonball also makes quality saxophones at a good price. Selmer Series III does not get my vote, but the Series II does. Yamaha is a safe decision in most cases.
~~JK
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-04-04 17:43
C Melody saxes are collector items and are rarely played professionally. I have a Conn straightneck and I constantly work to get the intonation right. I wouldn't recommend the C Melody for someone who wants to double on sax.
Twanese saxes are getting better every year. I have an Antiqua Winds soprano sax that is based pretty faithfully on the Yanagisawa 9920. It is an excellent sax at half the price of the Yani. I got it at one of my favorite online stores: http://www.kesslermusic.com/sotw/sotw.htm. I like music123.com too.
The Yamaha 62 Custom series is not an intermediate horn. It has never has been anything but a professional model for Yamaha. Sometimes you can get a new Yamaha 62 for less than a new Yamaha 23 student horn. The last two guys that did this called music123.com and talked them down on new horns that had been returned.
Alto and tenor saxes are relatively easy to learn compared to a clarinet. Soprano is harder because of intonation challenges. Think about an Eb soprano clarinet vs. a Bb soprano clarinet and you get the idea. Baritone saxes are heavier but the low tones are lovely.
All saxes; sopranino, soprano, alto, C tenor, tenor, baritone, bass, countra-bass, to name a few have the same fingering. Different models and types have recommended altissimo fingerings that can differ. Over 90% of sax players don't play in the altissimo range but I never met a pro who didn't.
The embouchure is rounder and looser, generally speaking, compared to the clarinet. You do not smile with the sax embouchure.
I come here to read about clarinets. I go to SaxOnTheWeb (SOTW) to read about saxophones: http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/. SOTW has around 10,000 readers and great moderators. ;o)
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2005-04-04 17:51)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-04-04 18:49
One thing I'll add to what's already been posted, the c-melody is being rediscovered by an ever-increasing number of saxophonists. I think of it as being somewhat similar to where the soprano sax was in the mid-50's. That is, not many people played them (outside of some classical saxophonists and a few jazz players) and they were considered to be out-of-tune and obsolete. A number of excellent jazz players are using the c-melody and have recorded with it such as Joe Lovano, Scott Robinson, Jan Garabrek (sp?), and others. The c-melody has a distinctive sound that's different from either an alto or a tenor. I've had a great time exploring the possibilities of a c-melody and I use it quite a bit in both jazz and classical settings. However, I would NOT recommend it as a saxophone to start on as it as it has some particular quirks. It's best that one be an experienced saxophonist to deal with c-melody intonation and mouthpiece issues. It's much better starting on alto or tenor.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2005-04-04 18:57
I own a Yas-23 that I got cheap and made a product out of. It's a good horn with good response, a clear tone, and very good keywork (if only they were M.O.pearl instead of plastic). If you find a 23 at a very good price I wouldn't hesitate long. However, you'll be hard pressed to find a good deal on one in playable condition. For an instrument marketed as a student horn (even though I think they are competitive with many labeled as intermediates), they garner quite a high price through retail chains, second hand music stores, and ebay.
Buescher, King, Conn, et al are American brands only who's vintage material is worth much of anything. The newer stuff from these brands tends to be rather lackluster compared to Yamaha, but the vintage stuff can quite fantastic if it's in good playing and mechanical condition. There are certain things one needs to consider when shopping for vintage horns. Here is a good writeup: http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/BestVintageSax.html
For the best saxophone option on the cheap, I would recommend Bundys. I played one for 7 years in Jr and Sr High. They're ruggedly built, and many people find them decent tone and intonation wise, though their keywork is definitely not their strong point.
-JfW
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-04 19:49
Speaking of vintage saxes, my two favorites (which I play regularly) are "twin" 1925 silver-plated Kings, an alto and a tenor --- these play up to the best modern standard and are more ruggedly built than anything new I've seen on the market. Their sound might be a bit smaller (and I've been told "sweeter") than that of the typical modern saxes, and their ergonomics take some getting used to if you grew up on Mark VIs and such, but intonation-wise they're nearly perfect and I just like the way they feel and play (and look). Personally I have no desire to play any new saxophones now that I have these two 80-year-old beauties.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-04-04 21:42
Thanks to all for the great advice. Seems like Yamaha has it hands down. At the moment I'm just "window shopping". I have an extra clarinet to sell in order to finance this new venture. Soon as I do....well......lookout.
I'm thinking along the lines of alto rather than tenor for now. But that cold change.
Again thanks to you all.
JG
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-04 22:57
Ok, here's another check on the Sax thing:
I just called Woodwind Brasswind and they will (currently) sell the Jupiter Silver Plated Gold Trim "869SG" Sax for $1199. Their "MAP" price is $1600 now as Jupiter just jacked up the price so that $1200 is fast fleeting.
Their # is 800-348-5003 and the person I use is John Boles who used to be head of Customer Service. For $800 less than the Yamaha, it is a great, great, great instrument - wonderful intonation, tone, and the keywork is first rate too.
http://www.wwbw.com/Jupiter-869SG-Artist-Alto-Saxophone-i34733.music?t=4 is the link.
If shopping and comparing more than one Sax for under $2000, ya ought to include one of them in the fray.
Is it better than the Yamaha 62?
no, not in my opinion, but it is better for the $$$$ and still a really great instrument.
The reviews for it are very positive
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-04-05 00:26
Hi John
all good 'advice'
i enjoy playing my sax's
IMHO, Yamie makes the best for the $.
I've 3 yamies, 875 pro custom soprano and alto and a 62 tenor.
My 1963 mint Martin Music Man gives a much brighter sound. My Selmer 80 fits in between.
The 23 is a good start, a 52 is a better start. The 875's, mint used appraoch $2,000. The 52 is much less and still a great sax.
Don't get too concerned about the necks. I've several necks: G1 , gold plated, M1 and others. The stock neck works JUST fine, regardless of the model.
MP's.......hmmmmmmm. sooooooo many to choose from. A great startere mp is the Fobes Debut model and can be had for about $35. CLark hand finishes ea one. I have one for my tenor.
They are FUN to play, octaves instead of 12ths adn basically all the same principles apply....legato, tonguing, etc.
Try saxontheweb.com.
Oodles of ineteresting articles.
regards
dennis
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-04-05 00:58
dude,
Yamaha makes lots of good stuff, but try other things too. I have noticed that lots of horn players, clarinet players in particular, tend to get too bogged down in dogma and brand names. why does everybody instantly go after the one name that anyone gives them? Buffets are fine clarinets, but the Yamaha Custom is a fine clarinet too. Custom saxes are fine saxes, but so are Selmers, Keilwerths, and Cannonballs. there are a lot of good equipment out there, but no one seems to give it a second glance--and therefore doesn't even try the horns. how can anyone be sure they found their "perfect" horn if they don't check out all of their options?
sorry for the rant, I just had to get that out there.
~~JK
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-04-05 01:10
john
here's one sight that should be helpful.
don't know if it will show blue to click on. If not, copy/paste
http://www.saxpics.com/infonmisc/whatshouldibuy/main.htm
from here (there) lol, you can go back to the home page adn lokk at additional articles
regards
dennis
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-04-05 01:20
I'm guessing that John doesn't want to spend over $3000 on a Selmer, Keilwerth, or Yanagisawa--all of which are nice saxes. Yamaha is cheaper but great. And my son loved his Jupiter sax better than the Yanagisawa that I bought him. So I kept the Yani. ;o)
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-04-05 20:35
The good thing about the Yamaha horns is that they are relatively consistent throughout the line. I'd not say the same about anything with George M. Bundy's moniker on same, and some of the old "student" LeBlanc products (Vito) were less than desirable when I tried them.
With the Yamaha, you know that there will be A) a lot of them, as they make up a good part of the student market; B) lots in good condition; and C) relative consistence between the student/intermediate horns and the pro ones. Can't say that about Selmer, Mark VI or not.
Then there is a whole minefield of other horns out there, but you are fishing around relatively blindly when you try to pick a good Conn or Buescher from the poor ones. And, the ergo layout on some of these "American" horns is less than desirable. I'd not trade the tone and timbre of my Conn Artist alto (dating back to the late 1920's) for anything (a real powerhouse of a horn), but the keywork seems to have been laid out by an orangoutang. No need to saddle yourself with that handicap when you start learning the saxophone.
And then there's Couf...do we have any Couf fans on here? I've only touched one once in my life, and the one thing that stuck in my memory was how big the damn'd thing was (a tenor). It played in tune so acoustically it was all right, but, my God, was that thing a handful...it felt like a transistorized baritone...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-05 20:38
Couf saxes were made by Keilwerth. I played a Superba II tenor for about ten years from when I bought it new in the early 80s --- nothing at all wrong with its ergonomics, in my opinion.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-04-05 20:45
Um... yes. Now that you mention it, I play two Couf Superba I's, an alto and a tenor. You can see my fav pics of the Couf twins here: http://www.gandalfe.net/photogallery/couftwins2_sm.jpg. Note the pearl touches on the G# key. Oooohhh. :o)
The Couf Superba II is an intermediate horn which means it doesn't have extras like the pearl touches on the G# key.
The alto cost me $1200 (a steal of a deal) and the tenor $2200 on eBay. The tenor needed to be regulated to the tune of $100. The alto has never needed any work. These horns have huge projection and great intonation. Unfortunately they need custom cases as the bell is a little larger that most.
I stopped looking for the perfect alto and tenor sax once I got these babies.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2005-04-05 20:47)
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-04-05 20:49
Guess I opened a Pandora's box here.....NEVER knew she had such diversity in that box......thanks so much for all the input.....I'm still intigued by the C melody.....guess I'm nuts.....or whatever.......A CONN C is on ebay....(there goes my chance of getting it)...and it's beautiful....at least in the pics......I really only want a sax to play in the bedroom or maybe GOD willing the backyard.....so...don't care about intonation.....etc....just want to play it like David Sanborn...Charlie Parker.....Chill Wills....oh wait...he didnt play sax ...did he?
JG
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-04-08 15:59
John, I was kinda surprised at your response but I just let it percolate a while. What I really wanted to say, without sounding harsh, is that I really think of playing the C melody (aka C tenor) is akin to playing a metal clarinet. BTW, I have two of these wea beasties. Sure, it can be done. And a great clarinetist can make a metal clarinet sound good. But I suspect a good clarinetist can’t.
There are better quality metal clarinets and C melody saxes, but they are hard to find and more expensive. So if you are a collector, go ahead buy one. But if you really want to play sax, you might be better served by getting a decent used sax. If money is the issue, and it usually is, look for a used Yamaha 23 which you should be able to get for a decent price.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2005-04-08 16:01)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-04-08 23:41
John,
If I was to give up my Selmer Mark VI alto or tenor, I'd consider a classic instrument like a Martin Tenor/Alto, Buescher 400, or a King Super 200 but would expect to spend money for a complete rebuild (probably not a relacquer). This could be a lot of time and significant expense but I'm not sure I'd ever have as good an instrument as a Yamaha (any of the top lines which can be had for ~$2000 US or a tad more).
I've played them all and Yamaha has taken the Selmer equation, "streamlined" some of the manufacturing processes, and come up with a winner. I had a YTS 62 several years ago but went back to a Mark VI because I had some extra money. Big mistake.
HRL
PS I have three Yamaha surround receivers, a sub-sat system that is really tops, and would buy a Yamaha computer if such an animal was available.
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