 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-04-07 17:30
Hello
Does anyone know the acoustical reasons for the airy throat tones? What is it about these 4 notes (G,Ab,A,Bb) that make them hard to play cleanly from an acoustical perspective?
What is people's experience with barrels & throat tones? Does a non-cylindrical (conical?) barrel improve the resonance of these tones? Does it make it worse?
My suspicions are that the dimensions of the bore in parallel with the very short distance between the closed end of the tube & the open tone holes means that it's hard to keep the oscillations flowing through the tube. What ends up happening is that the waveforms of the overtones tend to break down and become just moving air on top of the lower harmonics. I believe this is the reason the various resonance fingerings help. They tend to enforce the oscillation of the various frequencies in the cylinder by setting up nodes at the approximate correct distances. I also tend to think that a non-cylindrical barrel may help this as it would create a more pronounced impedance mismatch at a defined location in the bore, again reinforcing the resonance of the harmonics by creating a relatively consistent boundary condition for the reflections of the waveforms.
Thoughts from the acoustical experts here?
Thanks,
Matt
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-07 19:33
I'm not an acoustical expert (nor do I play one on TV), but I would take issue with (what I infer to be) your basic premise that that throat tones are inherently "airy" --- they may be so on your particular instrument, but they need not sound airy nor do they on many clarinets. That said, I'd guess that these notes TEND to be problematic because they are such a short distance down the tube, and are produced just downstream of a number of perturbations and (as you note) acoustical impedance mismatches such as the mouthpiece-barrel and barrel-upper section joints and the register tube; also with these notes' wavelengths being shorter, any perturbations would be relatively larger compared to the wavelengths and thus have a greater effect on the stability and tonality of those "short" notes.
As Richard Nixon once said, "but I could be wrong".
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-04-07 20:51
Hey Dave:
I understand your point. Obviously some instruments or systems (clar/mpc/reed/lig/oral cavity) respond better in this range than others. My A clarinet is so much better in this regard than my Bb although they are the same brand/model, using the same mpc/reed/lig. This in particular got me thinking about this question wrt the standing wave of the characteristic frequencies & what could affect the stability of those waves.
I would love to understand in some way the science that shows where the trade-offs are between clarity of tone of these notes & the other variables that have been discussed before wrt this particular characteristics of clarinets. This would include things such as bore diameter of clarinet, bore shape of barrel, length of register tube, diameter of register tube, projection of tube into bore, tone hole size, clearance of pad over tone hole, etc. I'm sure there are many more variables that I haven't thought of in this note but you get the idea. Unfortunately it's somewhat difficult to do experiments that could show me the effects of some of these variables.
All thoughts welcomed!
Thanks,
Matt
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-04-07 21:39
Though we can definitely work successfully to work the "air" out of our throat notes, I would say that they definitely have that tendency.
As to why - I would ask what kind of environment supports white noise, where all different frequencies are present - its one with a lot of different resonant lenghts rolled into one - so that all of the different frequencies can be present. The short length compared to the bore means that there are several effectve lengths of clarinets present to support a bunch of different modes.
But you also need a white-noise driver. Ovbiously, a reed with an unbalanced tip is a good example of this. Others would be any discontinuity in the bore - of which there are indeed many up near the throat.
Part of it as well is I think that in the throat range, given the air flow, its hard to maintain the mouthpiece as a pressure anti-node - there's too much freedom of the air to move due to the pressure - but that's just another way of making the effective length argument. (A physicsist's most common phrase is, "That's one way of looking at it.")
If you put all of this together - I'd guess you're pretty close to the root causes of "fuzz" in the throat notes.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-04-07 21:42
Indeed some instruments are better with throat tones than others--no two in the same family even alike. Your problem could well be with the mouthpiece/tuning barrel/reed/ligature combination as well as pads and adjustments on your instrument. If your A is better than your Bb clarinet, then your Bb should probably be looked at by a woodwind technician to see if your Bb/register key needs to be cleaned or adjusted as well as other pads, etc.
Also, this is a problem that really takes a lot of practice to conquer. You don't hear too many professional/recording artists with this problem, so it is possible to get a good, rich, full, round tone with throat tones.
My clarinet is really good in the throat tone areas, but I also use some custom made barrels and mouthpieces and have worked hard on this particular problem.
Wish I could say there was a quick fix--or you could go out and buy certain equipment and have your problem solved. Sadly, it's one that takes much time and effort.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-04-07 21:51
I agree with Dave's comments, and yes, Matt, I'd love to understand these subtilities [sp?] of our chosen insts. I spent a goodly chunk of today trying out [semi-scientifically] several barrels [our recent threads here were of interest !!] and a bit of top-tapering of one, on my best sops, Selmers CT and Omega, Leblancs Dyn 2 and L7. One of each make is a big-bore, where I noticed easier playing at greater volume, than with the "medium" bores. My best all-around barrels were plastic "Sounds of Woodwind" [with HRR {initials??} there-on], seemingly reversed-tapered ??, matching my mps bores well. I did a bit on top bore-enlarging on an older Noblet barrel which played nearly as well. Back to airy notes, I noticed none, with soft reeds on fairly wide-tipped mps and adequate venting of the A's and G#'s pads. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2005-04-08 20:34
1. These notes have very little resistance so most students use very little air and breath support to play them. (You have to support a high note-if you don't nothing comes out. If you don't support a throat tone you still a get a sound, even though its thin and airy). If you give these notes the same support as the rest of the notes, the sound will be the same.
2. Young students either consciously or unconsciously are afraid that they will drop the clarinet when they play open G. After all, there is nothing holding the clarinet but their mouth and right hand thumb. So they tend to bite harder and tense up their neck muscles which strangles the sound.
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Author: Pete
Date: 2005-04-08 23:20
Make sure you do not spend a tone of money on barrels and mouthpieces until you have a competant tech make sure your instument is set up well.
Venting in the throat area is very critical. For instance, it is very typical for the F# ring pad to not have enough opening. This is especially true on Buffet's. Your problem could be as simple as regulating the key height.
Pete
Emerson Musical Instrument Repair
North East Wisconsin Band Instrument Co.
ToneLure Tone Enhancement
Post Edited (2005-04-08 23:21)
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Author: Kiki Candy
Date: 2011-09-28 22:09
Some causes can be that your ligature is too tight, your reed may be old or slightly broken (this happened to me once my reed was broken but i couldn't see it because it was just a slit but in made a BIG difference), also you may not be using enough air or your embrasure may not be quite right you will also get an airy sound if the reed is super new but there is a great way to loosen up a brand new reed. soak it as usual and before you put it on your clarinet take the mouthpiece and put the thin tip across it (sideways not like you would put it on to play) press your thumb to it (but not too hard) and wiggle it just a bit not enough to break it just slightly twist it will loosen the reed and i promise not harm will come to the reed as long as you don't twist too much or too hard. also make sure your clarinet is clean at all times this makes a HUGE difference in the sound as well Hope this helps!
Musically Me!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-09-28 22:28
Did we mention adding keys to vent properly?????
Yes, the short length of the instrument is the culprit in these notes. But one learns to be even more diligent about focused, quick air support AND adding fingers for slower passages. Bb is typically the third fingers of both hands and the Eb/Ab key (right hand pinky)........also just 2 and 3 of both hands. For "A" I like to add the first finger of the right, "Ab" 1 and 2 of the right, and "G" just 2 and 3 of the right. You can play with these all day long making adjustments for your horn of course. Bottom line is that the more "length" you can add for a note, the more resonance you will achieve.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-09-28 22:42
I find the throat notes very easy to play without any airy quality. Here's why...
I recently took part in an experiment. A tube was inserted in the corner of my mouth. The air pressure coming through the tube was measured while I played various passages on the clarinet. The pressure was compared with the readings given by oboe and bassoon players.
The following results were unsurprising:
-Clarinet players use a lot less air pressure than oboe players
-The louder we play, the more air pressure we use
But one result was quite surprising:
-The longer the tube, the more air pressure is used.
So a throat B-flat uses a lot less air pressure than a low E. And a high B uses less pressure than a middle line B.
This is very different from both oboe and bassoon, who have to use more air pressure to produce higher notes. This is probably also why we don't have problems producing soft low notes, whereas on their instruments this is one of the most difficult things.
So here's my advice: if you are getting airy throat notes, just use less air. Don't "blow, blow, blow", like many teachers say you should. Keep supporting, but take away more and more air, until you can produce clear, pure throat notes.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-29 01:37
The shape of the bore is different for each note.
For low E, the bore is comparatively long and narrow. For low F, the bore is shorter, but the same diameter, and so on up, and thus the ratio between length and diameter constantly changes.
By the time you get to second-line G and up to Bb, the bore shape is much shorter in comparison with the diameter. The diameter is the same as on low E, but not the length. This makes for a different tone color.
Also, at the upper end of the clarinet, the holes are smaller and spaced much closer together than at the bottom. For the throat tones, there's very little room for adjustment of, for example, the position of the hole closed by the pad attached to the left index finger ring (underneath the A key). Emission of sound through a small hole sounds different from emission through a large one.
The hole positions also need to be tinkered with to keep the clarion register in tune with the chalumeau.
And of course the register vent position must always be a compromise to permit it to sound third line Bb as well as give the upper register.
Almost everyone puts down extra fingers to increase resonance for the throat tones. Kal Opperman taught me to put down my right index and middle fingers for throat Ab, my left middle finger, right index and middle fingers and the low F key for A, and the two ring fingers and the low F key for Bb. These extra fingers lower the pitch a bit, so you must use a slightly shorter barrel or lip the pitch up.
In his book The Clarinet http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm, #C033, Jack Brymer gives meticulous instructions on voicing and tuning the throat area.
The clarinet is not a perfect instrument. The change in bore shape as the sounding length changes is inherent in every wind instrument. String players have problems, too. The diameter of the string doesn't change, and the vibrating section of the string gets shorter and shorter as they go higher. They have to work just as hard as we do to keep the tone consistent.
You must constantly do the hokey-pokey and and turn yourself around. That's what it's all about.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-29 02:27
Don't you hate it when people restart threads that are years old? And you read something you posted way back then and realize you sounded like an idiot? Which makes you wonder if maybe the stuff you're writing NOW makes you sound like an idiot?
Man, I feel like an idiot.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-09-29 20:35
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> Don't you hate it when people restart threads that are years
> old? And you read something you posted way back then and
> realize you sounded like an idiot? Which makes you wonder if
> maybe the stuff you're writing NOW makes you sound like an
> idiot?
>
> Man, I feel like an idiot.
On the flipside, seeing an earlier post of mine shows me how much I've learned since then.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: noeasy
Date: 2015-10-25 23:03
Cleaning the tone holes properly may reduce the problem..
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2015-10-26 18:25
The register key has to act as the Bb and the register key. Its in the wrong place for both, and is too small for the Bb. A, Ab, and Bb are very small. Sometimes the Bb needs vented more, but this can cause "grunting" in the upper register A and B. Like some guys said it's also a short tube with little resistance at that point.
I like to play Bb with A and the B side trill key.
- Matthew Simington
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