 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-04-03 16:20
I have a young student (age14 or so) who was taught by a previous teacher to use vibrato on clarinet. (NOTE: this is not an invitation to debate whether to use a vibrato on clarinet or not!!!) ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
He has some distance to go on tone quality and my belief is that it is wise to go the traditional route with no vibrato at least until there is a solid concept of tone and intonation. He insists on using vibrato, having heard recordings of clarinetists who use it. In most instances, I would not work on vibrato at all except for an advanced player who asks for it.
What are the thoughts of other teachers on this Bboard?
The same question applies to saxophone.....I would tend to teach vibrato earlier on sax since it is a standard technique there.
John in Vancouver, WA
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2005-04-03 16:36
Does he use vibrato for every style? If so he should be taught not to. Vibrato should only be used for certain styles, and certainly not classical.
I agree that the student should have a good concept of intonation and tone color before learning vibrato.
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"You have to play just right to make dissonant music sound wrong in the right way"
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-03 16:55
"Vibrato should only be used for certain styles, and certainly not classical"
This is highly debatable, but John asked that this doens't turn into a debate about whether to use vibrato or not!
Personally if the student uses vibrato naturally, I wouldn't restrict him. I would just continue working on tone, and make sure that the tone quality never suffers, vibrato or not. If the type of vibrato is particularly innapropriate to the style of music, I would also point that out, just as I would point out inappropriate articulation, dynamics, etc.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-03 17:38
I'm sure that anyone who teachers has had a similar situation... a student who comes from another teacher (or not teacher at all) with bad habits they are resistant to changing. I think you just have to pick your battles in cases like this. If the bad habit is something that you can live with (like the vibrato), it might be better to just put up with it for now and try to gently shape it into a more tasteful playing style (hoping that in the long run, the student will come around to your way of thinking). If however, in your educated opinion, the vibrato (or other bad habit) is so bad that they can't really keep doing it (and still have anything resembling a good sound), you might have to put your foot down (my way or the highway). I personally don't like doing this, although I have done it once with one student who was particularly resistant to any kind of help...
The goal of a teacher should be to help a student find his/her own way. There are many aspect of playing that are up to the individual (embouchure, high note fingerings, vibrato use, etc). However, from my teaching experience most 14 year olds (8th grade, usually) aren't musically mature enough to debate the benefits of various approaches to such problems. Usually, if they are refusing to change something, they either 1) don't know how to change it or you aren't teaching it well enough of 2) are just being stubborn. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a student that age who is resisting change because of some ideological stance they've taken. That being said, you're the one with the knowledge of the clarinet, so don't be afraid to make that clear (in a gentle, supportive way). Nobody likes a teacher who is mean or forces absolutes on their students, but at the same time you can't be too wishy-washy.
You might try some duets and long-tones with the student and stress the concept of blending. If the student plans on playing in any kind of ensemble in the future, he/she will have to temper vibrato for the sake of blending, so come at it from a pragmatic stance (aka... vibrato is neither good or bad per se... but if ensemble playing you need to tone it down, or something like that). That might be a way to get the student to ease up without feeling like he or she has "caved" to you. Just a thought..
DH
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-03 20:35
Unless this student is going to be a "jazzer", they need to learn to play effectively without vibrato. While I am a supporter of vibrato on clarinet, I do recognize that tradition has a firm grip on what is expected from us. A young student needs to learn to master the instrument (if any of us really ever master the damned thing) with a straight pure tone first and then, later, learn the nuances of varying vibratos.
Whatever style you want to use to talk to or influence the student to do your bidding, at 14-years-old (or so) they have no choice in the end about the basics. To me, this a "basics" topic. Like I said, if they are only going to be a "jazzer" (and how you can tell this at 14-years-old I would have no clue), then let them be. If they are going to be involved in the rest of the clarinet world, they need to "get over it", let go of the vibrato and get to work on the basics of the clarinet which, at 14-years-old and with a year or more of experience, means tone, tone, tone.
In my opinion (and anyone who has been here long knows I value it highly ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) ) the kid needs to learn the discipline of a straight and manicured tone first and can later re-insert their vibrato as appropriate...when they have a clue as to the "what and why" behind appropriateness.
[Side note: I'm not, and never have been, a "touchy-feeley" teacher (public or private). When it comes down to whether the student "gets what they want" or not, it comes from my experience and knowledge, not theirs. If not, why am I teaching them? Too much "I'm okay. You're okay" still lingering in some teaching today. *stepping off soap-box*]
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-03 20:44
I'm not sure I agree with the above two posts. Firstly, I wouldn't describe vibrato as a "bad habit"! Many wonderful clarinet players use vibrato. John said that this kid has heard some clarinetists who play with vibrato, so has obviously already incorporated it into his mental concept of clarinet tone. Why take this away from him? Why make every clarinet player sound like every other? Shouldn't this kid be allowed to develop his own personal sound?Of course he needs to be able to produce a good tone without vibrato when the music calls for it, but I don't think it's necessary to ban it from his playing altogether!
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-04-03 21:19
Thanks for the posts so far.
What I had thought to do - before posting the question - was to say, look, if you want to use vibrato on your own, that is fine with me, but for the purposes of lessons, let's concentrate on the basics as Robert mentioned. One reason I brought this up is that it seems to me that sometimes a vibrato is used to cover up poor basic tone.
John
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-04 03:20
John mentioned, "One reason I brought this up is that it seems to me that sometimes a vibrato is used to cover up poor basic tone."
I couldn't agree more.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-04-04 05:51
I had a similar situation a few years ago with a flute student who converted to clarinet. He had not been particularly aggressive with flute vibrato, so I don't know how he came to be entrenched with it on clarinet.
I agree with most here that vibrato is not really an option for a young teenager. Despite the usual protests about individuality, the fact is that any student who persists in this habit is going to run into strident opposition and discrimination when pursuing playing opportunities.
And that's what I told him. Any number of players in any number of styles have successfully used vibrato, but it is difficult to do well and is seldom considered acceptable for section clarinet players.
But I also agree with the concept that you have to choose your battles. If a kid is stubborn about the vibrato, then perhaps the best cure is for the student to hit a brick wall somewhere in seeking a playing opportunity. Not unlike a kid who's slow getting a good sound. You can't suspend the kid's education over one issue. There is plenty to work on, and maybe it's best to build up other strengths hoping for the day when the student sees the light.
On saxophone, I try to avoid contrived vibrato. The best vibrato tends to occur naturally as the level of resonance increases. Thus I find that the best time to address the issue is when it this starts to manifest itself in the student. While I agree that some vibrato is very much an attempt to mask tone problems, I rarely find it well-done in the absence of well-developed tone. More often than not it's sounds like the kid's chewing something.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2005-04-04 06:08)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-04-04 14:02
It seems you tend to be slightly on the "touchy feely" side as a teacher. I think this is not all bad. If this is the case you certainly won't get anywhere issuing ultimatums based on other peoples' opinions. I suggest you gradually insert small exercises where your student focuses on a straight tone and build from there. Be creative.....have the student play a lyrical study alternating vibrato and non vib every bar or 2 bars. Have the student play with way more vibrato than they are used to for a short exercise. then straight. Make it into a game and just a part of the entire lesson.
Regarding vibrato covering up bad tone, I don't think anyone intends it that way. It is just a habit for many people. Vibrato can also cover up good tone or it can enhance good tone at times. I believe there is a quote regarding Judy Garland in her later years(not Over the Rainbow which is beautiful) .....she had a Vibrato with a voice. Play duets with your student....work on very simple blending and ensemble. Good luck with this.... JP ( touchy feely armchair teacher)
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-04-04 16:28
Given the spectre of the touchy-feely, I think that it's important to note the basic wisdom of Robert Moody's statement that there's too much "I'm okay, you're okay" in teaching today. And I would want nothing in my previous post to contradict that.
One of the primary reasons that I advocate choosing your battles, is the fact that a previous teacher caused this problem with John's student. (And I stand firm by my opinion that TEACHING vibrato to a beginning student is both wrong and harmful) What John faces here is the fact that if he pushes to hard or fast for the kid to clean things up, the kid may very well quit lessons and seek out a more vibrato-friendly teacher. (maybe a hack teacher)
As with tobacco, alcohol, sex, etc., it is generally true that a person who grows up with bad habits doesn't really have choices at maturity. This is why we keep our kids away from some of those things I mentioned. I would put vibrato in that category for this instrument.
It is our job as teachers to give our students options in the long run, but that won't happen if we don't at least voice opposition to bad habits that are entrapping them. An ultimatum probably is not the answer, but I would hardly consider vibrato a legitimate stylistic choice for a 14-year old. A straight tone doesn't seem to be an option for him at this point and John has the burden of creating that option in the face of student opposition. My personal RX would be to play duets and send him to concerts.
Good luck, John.
Allen Cole
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-04 21:21
Thanks for the warning Allen- when my kids become tenagers I'll make sure they stay away from sex, drugs and vibrato! ;-)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-04 21:29
Since you are so against the use of vibrato why don't you just suggest the student go to another teacher rather than try to change him. But then....perhaps you hate to lose a student.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-04-04 22:40
Ouch...I hope he doesn't take that the same way I would!
This is not about whether vibrato is a good or bad thing. He said that from the very beginning and it has turned into the inevitable (especially on this BB with so many strong oppinions!). Having said that, let's assume vibrato is not always a bad thing.
It would then be important for him to learn how to play with both styles. If he plays in a band ask him to listen to the other clarinetists. Tell him to ask his friends, music teachers, etc. and see what the preference is. He will probably find that most musicians with extensive knowledge of the instrument would prefer to hear the clarinet played non vibrato in a band/orchestra setting. Solos are a different story and that shouldn't be the issue. Solos should be about creating individual interpretations (of course, that fit with standards and precedents...i.e. playing the Mozart concerto like a jazz piece would be wrong, but playing the Weber concerti with vibrato would not sound bad at all) of literature, but band pieces should be about playing together (from an ensemble perspective) and not standing out (unless one has a solo). In any event, he will have to learn both styles if he wants to continue to pursue the instrument, otherwise he will suffer at auditions undoubtedly. If I were a judge (and I have judged before and asked about this situation to other judges who are professional clarinetists) I would dock the player points because it would lead me to believe he/she is a player who doesn't have a good knack of playing together in a section. A concerto competition, like I said, would be a different story, but auditioning for, say, a district band would have him suffer because of this habit.
In any event, good luck with this one.
As for Bob's comment: if, IN YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT, vibrato is not the best thing for this student and you want to change him you should at least try and explain to him why you think this is the best approach. If the loss of a student is the result, so be it...but who DOES like to lose a student? If you like losing students there's something wrong with your brain. Something VERY wrong! :^)
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-04-04 23:58
I say tie them up and force them to listen to a sine wave until all they can imagine is a even sound!
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-04-05 05:33
As an engineering major, the mere mention of the sin wave and cosine wave make me shudder. What's a little more interesting are the sin and cosine surfaces! Now that's music to my ears!
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2005-04-05 14:10
This has been interesting! I wouldn't have bothered if I didn't think the student had some promise for being a good player. For David's question, he is using a jaw vibrato. It actually sounds pretty good. I heard someone in the next studio on clarinet who really does sound like he is chewing something. I like the idea of allowing it, depending on the playing situation. I think he will understand that and has the ability to make those decisions. I probably should give the Short Lecture #495N about the tradition of playing without vibrato, especially in ensemble situations.
Hmmm. Sine wave therapy. Now that sounds like a new teaching technique. Just hope we don't have anyone out there who really sounds like that!
Thanks, John
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Author: majakr
Date: 2005-04-05 15:03
I think that it is not important whether you play with or without vibrato, but whether you have a feeling how you sound like and how you want your sound like to be. Maybe your student is not aware of the extension of his vibrato. Listening to yourself while playing is not easy and has to be learned. I often record myself just to see how the recorded sound is compared to the sound I perceived during the recording.
So if you think that your student plays with too much vibrato, just make a few recordings and discuss them with him. If he likes his sound, fine, if not, then your student will at least have a motivation to get rid or reduce his vibrato.
By the way, I do not agree with the statement "vibrato is o.k. in jazz, but 'forbidden" in 'classical music'". There is e.g. an "Andante con moto" by Federico Busoni (for piano and clarinet) in which the composer requires a vibrato... and I think it sounds quite nice. On the other hand there are enough examples of horrible clarinet vibrato recordings in jazz.
Best wishes,
Martin
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-04-05 22:30
Yes for those examples but the abundant majority of classical music is hardly EVER played with vibrato.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-05 23:53
Some truly wonderful clarinet players of the 'classical' world use vibrato, in some extremely classical pieces.
It is an incredibly useful tool for creating different colours, in any style of music. Sometimes, it's used without the casual listener even noticing.
I also agree that it should be handled carefully. 'Nanny goat' (very fast and shallow) vibrato is common and of limited use. I also agree with the comments that vibrato can be used to hide more serious problems in tone production.
I would suggest experimenting with the tone, seeing the quality with and without vibrato. Fix any fundamental issues before worrying about the vibrato itself.
If you want to teach a useful vibrato, I recommend a sax book...Jimmy Dorsey's sax method. It has some very simple, but very effective exercises.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-04-06 14:37
I agree that the kid needs to be placed in "whole note hell" until he has a nice tone. No vibrato for a looooong while.
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Author: clarisax
Date: 2005-04-07 02:00
i think this topic is very interesting. first of all i would like to say that i am a reformed vibrato user so i know what its like to be a student getting screamed at for it.
i think that you absolutely have to tell your student that he is playing incorrectly. at that stage in the game i think you would actually be doing more harm if you encouraged him to "explore his sound." my main reason is simple - the kid will stick out (in a bad way) in ANY setting, whether it be a band or an orchestra. there is nothing worse then playing in a section of clarinet players with one kid who uses vibrato. intonation is horrible enough in most high school bands so a clarinet section doesnt need the added wobbly noise of someone intentionally using vibrato. its true that vibrato helps to mask bad intonation but not when only one person in a section is using it (in most flute sections vibrato is standard and all players use it).
i started playing on saxophone and then switched to clarinet so i was unaware that clarinets were supposed to play with a straight tone. i used to play saxophone with a very classical sound and my vibrato was well controlled. infact i had always gotten compliments on my tone and vibrato at festivals. i walked into my first private clarinet lesson and got screamed at for half an hour about how a clarinet IS NOT a saxophone. there is nothing wrong with being strict.
if you are his new teacher he should be expecting new concepts. for me the whole point of going to a new teacher is to be exposed to different ideas about clarinet playing with hopes that i will become a better player as a result. if good tone, to you, is the lack of vibrato, then by all means expect him to play without vibrato. every teacher has standards and it is crazy to let a student fall below your standards just because he was taught differently before. those are just my thoughts from past experiences.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-04-07 15:58
Hear, hear, Clarisax!
Your second paragraph should be a warning to all young players.
to Bob Draznik:
The answer to your question is obvious and its accusatory tone is misplaced. JohnG put this question out because he is concerned for this kid and wants to help him. That's probably more than I can say for the kid's first teacher.
Let's review:
1. It's not about vibrato per se. It's about BEING ABLE to play straight with the same degree of expression.
2. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PLAYER in real life. It's about the listener first and foremost, and how your ENSEMBLE reaches that listener. As the player of an ensemble instrument, your immediate personal concern is to meet the needs of the ensemble involved.
We spend a lot of time working with students on their personal style and projection as a soloist, but we must make the student understand that most of his playing will not be as a soloist. He will be meeting the demands of his ensemble and its audience.
3. To paraphrase Robert E. Lee, everyone must be taught to deny themselves the kind of indulgences that are all too within reach. Almost everyone who draws a paycheck does so by meeting the needs or wants of the people who contribute to that paycheck. The more that you insist on doing things your own way, the less attractive your services are to people who have other sources available for the same services.
Multiply this by a googleplex at minimum for musicians. Terrific musicians get shut out on style issues (as opposed to quality issues) all the time. (multiply this an additional googleplex for studio work) Talented players need to be guided towards meeting commonly accepted standards for sound and style as well as technique. To fail in this, is to very likely short-curcuit a career before it even starts.
Teachers like JohnG are trying to give talented students a real chance, while at the same time trying not to alienate them from this pursuit by ultimata. I applaud him for his concern and pragmatism in dealing with this.
4. Why not send him to a more vibrato-friendly teacher? Because of the practices and prejudices of the professional world. If the student is too self-indulgent at this point in his development, he will probably never have the opportunity to indulge himself in front of an audience.
5. Why not just leave it a matter of individual style? Ask our orchestral, studio, Broadway and military people. They will tell you that it is their job to make a silk purse from sow's ear on demand, and to color or decorate it as the conductor instructs. I have replaced superior players over such issues, and have been replaced myself a couple of times. Not getting that second call can zap you like a cattle prod. If you are unwilling to do a certain thing, you might get a second chance like I did...but if you are UNABLE, what basis can there be for another shot?
These same issues also apply at much lower levels of the musical food chain. It can make a big difference even in a district band audition. No one's trying to stifle the kid's creativity. Just trying to stop him from shooting himself in the foot.
Allen Cole
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Author: Clarino20
Date: 2005-04-09 20:25
I used to use vibrato for everything. It wasn't until High school that a teacher told me I needed to distinguish my sound differently when I played the classical literature. It also helped when she made the reference that Benny Goodman met Reginald Kell and Kell had a few choice words about his performance, he said something along the lines of why limit your opportunities? Then Benny Goodman started playing classical. All popular artists have to do what they don't want to do sometimes to get income. It is necessary for all clarinetists I think to be well-rounded, experience vibrato, and experience regular full bodied classical sound.
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