 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-02 14:28
Hi, I just printed out the clarinet parts for the Overture from my Orchestra Musician's CD, and I was surprised by the change of instruments in the middle, from C to A. I can see why Rossini might have liked the sound of the c clarinet on this piece, but does anyone have any ideas on why he might have gone to the A halfway through? If I don't have a C clarinet perhaps I should play the transposed part only until the instrument switch?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-02 15:11
I can think of a couple of reasons:
-He liked the sound of the A clarinet too! He probably wanted the beautiful solo with horn to be played on A clarinet, and perhaps it blends better with horn than a C clarient would.
-If he'd stayed on C clarinet, then the solo would have had to be played in E major, which wasn't the most comfortable key for instruments at the time. Of course it would have been possible, but certainly would sound better in G major on the A clarinet.
Many clarinet players play the whole overture on the A clarinet, and transpose the C parts a minor 3rd up. I am a supporter of playing C parts on C clarinet. I've played lots of Rossini, Verdi, Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart, Smetana and Strauss on C clarinet when it's called for by the composer, and am utterly convinced that the benefits outweigh the difficulties.
Why don't more clarinet players use C clarinets? Laziness!
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-02 15:26
Then there are those of us who think that with some exceptions, the C clarinet is used as 'laziness' on the part of copyists or composers...simply copying material from, for example, violin parts and not bothering to transpose it.
Personally, I play Barber of Seville on B flat and A...otherwise the section at the end is higher than comfortable and in a nasty key.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-02 15:38
Liquorice wrote: > He probably wanted the beautiful solo with horn to be played on A clarinet, and perhaps it blends better with horn than a C clarient would.<
Yes, as I look and listen I am quite inclined to play that section in A as written.
I would love to have a C clarinet some day, but it will be awhile, since we are a one income two child two tuition family for the forseeable future
I think I will cut and paste the two parts I have to make a Bb and A part. I don't know If we will actually be getting both at orchestra on Monday night. I was just looking ahead and glad I have the parts on CD-ROM
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-02 16:26
RAMman wrote: "Then there are those of us who think that with some exceptions, the C clarinet is used as 'laziness' on the part of copyists or composers...simply copying material from, for example, violin parts and not bothering to transpose it"
So Schubert suddenly changes to C clarinet for the theme and variation movement of the Octet because he can't be bothered to transpose the part? Why did he bother to transpose all the other movements then? Why did Strauss "not bother" to transpose the C clarinet parts in his operas, when he trasposed the parts for B-flat, A, E-flat and Bass clarinets in the same operas? Why does Beethoven use C clarinets for the opening of the quartet in Fidelio, when they are soloistic parts and not merely copies of violin parts? Did Smetana choose to use C clarinets in the Bohemian folk style of 'The Bartered Bride' just because he couldn't be bothered to transpose the parts? Why did he transpose some of the arias then, and not others? (Could he not possibly have found the sound of the C clarinet appropriate to this style?) The list could go on and on...
Clearly the laziness on the part of copyists and composers is the exception, rather than the other way around. But of course you may choose to believe otherwise if it makes your life easier!
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-02 21:13
why don't more people play C clarinet?
money
i've personally never the money lying around to buy one of these
the advice to "use my visa card" (once tactlessly given to an east european posting here) is not very helpful.
i can say that when i was at CCM i had the almost exclusive use of a C clarinet, and yes, it was very useful- particuarly for Barber and for Verdi Fallstaff, but not indispensible. Playing 1st or 2nd violin parts in a string quartet at weddings without having to transpose was definately less stressful than having to transpose at sight.
donald
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-02 22:14
I'm forgetting how much easier it is to tranpose than to pick up a C clarinet and play it.......
I don't choose not to use a C in the majority of relevant passages because I'm lazy, or can't get a C clarinet or can't play one...I do it for the reasons already given.
For every one of the examples above, there is another to say the other way. Fidelio is one...the duet that appears in Leonore 3 in C, appears in the opera itself in B flat. Leonore must have been in a slightly different mood from once instance to the next...
We have discussed the Beethoven violin concerto in the past...and I stand by what I said then. The solo in the middle movment is in C, because it's a copy of the violin part and somebody...be it Beethoven himself or his copyist(s), didn't want to bother with the tranposition.
Now, I know people will and fully expect them to disagree...but I know one particular clarinettist who agrees with me and frequents this board incognito will have a laugh seeing that this topic has come up again.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-03 05:03
"why don't more people play C clarinet?
money"
Well, it's amazing that people still manage to buy bassoons and flutes. And let's not even talk about string instruments. If money was the real issue then we'd all just buy full-Boehm B-flat clarinets and not have to worry about an A clarinet. The truth is that is has become the "norm" for a professional clarinetist not to own a C clarinet, and this is now considered acceptable. Having played a lot of C clarinet myself, I realise how clarientists are missing out by choosing to ignore this instrument.
"I'm forgetting how much easier it is to tranpose than to pick up a C clarinet and play it......."
Actually to play a C clarinet well takes a lot more time and practise than it does to practise C parts on the B-flat clarinet.
"For every one of the examples above, there is another to say the other way"
I totally disagree. If you really go and study the repertoire, you'll see very few occasions when C clarinets are used to double violin parts. It sounds like you're just repeating soemthing that one of your teahcers has said...
Post Edited (2005-04-03 05:04)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-03 05:58
There are many works in the standard orchestral repertoire where a C clarinet is called for, and you will find that most major symphonic clarinetists own one.
I have a 1986 Buffet R-13 C clarinet and wouldn't be without it in orchestra. There are numerous pieces where the C clarinet is not only a life saver (Tchaikovsky - "Mozartiana") but traditionally used. It certainly gives you a new perspective on the particular piece when you use it.
Whether it is "proper" orchestral practice to transpose these parts to the Bb clarinet is another question in itself, and lends to its own discussion on performance practice.
BTW - If value and price are a concern, the Buffet E-11 C clarinet is an excellent instrument...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-03 08:56
"you will find that most major symphonic clarinetists own one"
I'm happy to hear that in North America C clarinets are widely used. Sadly, that is not the case in Europe. Maybe things will change?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-03 10:36
Looking at a major UK retailer's website, and at a couple of manufacturers' brochures, C clarinets are thin on the ground.
Yamaha don't make them at all.
Selmer seem to make one on special order only.
Buffet make the E-11 and RC Prestige, but no R-13 etc.
Leblanc make four: Spirit, Esprit, Concerto, Opus. But only the first two are a sensible price: the Concerto is twice what I paid for my Bb Concerto.
What do all these US pros play? RC Prestige? Or is there a black market in second-hand R-13s?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-03 10:54
I did not say...
"C clarinet parts are only ever used when a violin part has played the material previously, and all C parts are copies of them'.
I used one example...a pretty well known and convincing one.
Mozartiana has been mentioned, in C for a damn good reason...it's flaming hard on B flat or A. And, with the lack of C clarinet writing in Tchaikovsky's other works...the argument that the composer wanted the sound is very convincing.
I am not saying that a C clarinet should never be used...just if I see a convincing argument against using one (and whatever you say, the solo in the Beethoven violin concerto sounds horrible on C clarinet), or a convincing argument that another clarinet is more appropriate, then I'll play something else.
Also, I have never discussed this with any of 'my teachers', just someone else who read a previous post on the topic. I think I'm experienced and qualified enough to comment on this by myself thanks very much.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-04-03 17:06
I did not say that you said that. But to quote you:
"Then there are those of us who think that with some exceptions, the C clarinet is used as 'laziness' on the part of copyists or composers"
This is clearly untrue. The opposite is the case- laziness on the part of copyists or composers is the exception. As someone "experienced and qualified" to comment on this, you would do well to go and study how and when composers used C clarinet. If you actually attempt to play some of these works on C clarinet, you'll realise that in almost all cases the composers had a reason for using it. Of course, you can still choose not to use the instrument that the composer wanted...
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-04-03 17:19
To comment of GBK's thoughts...
You'll find that 99% of major British symphonic players own a C clarinet. You'll just find that the majority of them choose not to use them in various different contexts. I still find the idea that this is due to 'laziness' to be absurd, but hey...such is life.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-04-03 20:01
..... and i didn't say that i thought it wasn't a good idea to own and use one, just that it wasn't high on my list of priorities.
if i had a full time orchestral gig i'd probably buy one of the new Rossi C clarinets- i have heard that they are very nice (not just from the advertising)
donald
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-05 04:07
Just as a footnote, now that I have the actual printed part in my hand, I find it a bit ironic that the transposed part is first, right behind the front cover.
I also wondered at rehearsal whether I will eventually stop expecting to hear a squealing brakes sound effect at the point in the music where Elmer and Bugs....Oh, never mind ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2005-04-05 06:40
I know this is not a list for C clar makers, but Amati make one (my experience with their Eeefer suggests it might be OK.
My own C clar is marketed by Tom Ridenour under the Arioso name. It's great and will be played extensively this year.
BobT
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