 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2005-03-22 02:03
Has anyone seen the "Brahms the Progressive" series in New York City---the last performance juxtaposed Brahms and Schoenberg. Do readers see Brahms as a "progressive," as Schoenberg did?
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-03-22 02:43
I'd have to say that I don't strictly consider him a Romantic and really do see him as a bridge between the Romantic style and the modern.
On a separate note, our local classical station has fallen in love with a recording of his 2nd clarient sonata arranged for flute and piano - which I'm afraid just doesn't work. Its driving me a little nuts.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-03-22 03:27
Firstly, I dislike generally the process of pigeonholing composers as this or that, so I'm not trying to do that here. Anyway, I think Brahms can be seen as progressive in different ways at different times. In his earlier days, around the time of his famous encounters with the Schumanns, he was composing in fairly adventurous forms and structures. Some of his early sonatas were very surprising is his day.
But more so in his later life, he presaged what became known as "neo-classicism". Stravinsky, Poulenc, Hindemith and others turned from the heaviness of Romanticism back to so-called neo-classicism in varying ways, often in terms of orchstration, sometimes in harmony. Brahms sometimes went in for Baroque structures (well, he was heavily involved in editing the Bach works), such as the passacaglia of the 4th Symphony. If it's seen as progressive to turn from a path that leads to an extreme, as Romanticism was beginning to, and head back to simpler times, then I think Brahms influence could be partly described this way.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-03-22 04:00
I would say Brahms was not progressive because he didn't invent any new musical forms, he didn't enhance or develop a new musical vocabulary, he didn't utilise any new harmonic theories let alone develop them (like Hindemith or Schoenberg) he was very much a classically trained romantic composer in my opinion.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-03-22 04:27
WHAT?? He has one of the most unique styles of compositon in the 19th and 20th centuries! His harmonies are so stylistically amazing and wonderful...wow, that comment really iritates me.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-22 04:35
Schoenberg felt that Brahms' ability to develop major works out of tiny musical germs foreshadowed the music of the 20th century.
Highly debatable ...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-22 06:55
"WHAT?? He has one of the most unique styles of compositon in the 19th and 20th centuries!"
diz is right- Brahms didn't invent new forms or harmonic theories. Compare him to Wagner who around the same time- Wagner created a new type of dramatic work, used harmony which couldn't be analysed in the harmonic system of the time, abandoned operatic conventions, made use of Leitmotivs, new forms, etc. etc. Brahms was very much rooted in the formal and structural concepts of older composers. This doesn't mean that his music isn't original, and certainly isn't a judgement of the qualirty of his music. Just that he wasn't progressive.
By the way- Brahms didn't write any music in the 20th century!!
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2005-03-22 09:50
I do not believe that any one said that Brahms wrote muisc in the 20th century. Rather, it was stated that his "ability to develop major works out of tiny musical germs foreshadowed the music of the 20th century."
As for his "progressive" bona fides. I have never been conviced, though sometimes Schoenberg's word is good for me! As much as I enjoy Brahms' music (2nd Symphony and his String Sextets are standouts), the fact that he was more or less the same age as both Verdi and Wagner (who were actually born in the same year) lessen his "progressiveness" in my mind. (What ever that REALLY means.)
As much as I love Schoenberg's music and eassys. (Style & Idea...what a great book and if you ever want a look inside the man and a glimpse of an out there student teacher relationship check out the "Schoenbert - Berg Correspondences, classic.). If you listen to early Schoenberg you can easily hear his affinity for Brahms. Verklate Nacht (sp?) could pass for late Brahms if one is not listening closely. Knowing of Schoenberg's formidable ego, it is easy to see how he could take his being influenced by the man to make him a "progressive". After all, I am sure that Schoenberg thought that without himself, the merely thought of 20th Century music is all but impossible. And since he was so progressive, well then of course his idol Brahms HAD to be...right? Just a thought....
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-22 12:57
"He has one of the most unique styles of compositon in the 19th and 20th centuries" was the statement I was referring to.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-22 15:46
Attempting to analyze the work of musicians provides income to critics and mental exercise to many.......and probably has some value. For myself I just enjoy hearing and playing Brahms' music. I guess it's like enjoying good wine without trying to figure out what kind of fertilizer the grower used on his grapes. I can't imagine a person listening to the opening measures of Brahms' Fourth and being able to think about analyzing it rather than just being carried away with it.
Bob Draznik
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