 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2005-03-15 18:15
Dear friends:
I would like your views on the following:
We will be featuring the "Gran Partita" next year. We have no basset horns.
In the past we used 2 additional sopranos (our BarenReuter edition includes an adaptation for these two additional clarinets). But we lost much in the translation as these Bb #3 and #4 rob the piece from the variety of colors in the winds cherished by Mozart.
We have access to two excellent bass clarinet players who can produce beautiful tones in the clarion and lower altissimo of the bass clarinet. We are thinking of using bass clarinets in lieu of basset horns, making sure the bass clarinet is scored in the same "concert" register as the original basset horns (i.e.: toward the top end of the bass cl. range).
In this area, the bass clarinet tonal color changes and "almost" takes a basset horn feel (if you keep the bass clarinet tone gentle, without edge). As well, bass clarinets sound quite different from sopranos up there. This would allow contrasting colors to follow each other in these passages where the two Bb and the two basset horns dialogue each other.
Any reaction to this idea? Any other way to solve the lack of basset horn problem?
Merci, comme toujours.
Mario Poirier
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-03-15 18:28
Hi Mario, not a bad idea.
Along the same line, you might also consider altos. They come even closer to the "basset horn" sound.
I will contact you about another idea privately.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-15 18:58
As a basset horn person who played the Gran Partita recently, I'd say it
sounds like a good idea - probably preferable to playing on soprano (which I've also done).
As for Altos - that might work for the first basset horn part, but the second has some important low notes beyond the range of an alto (hint: they're in the clarinet/basset horn quartet trio section).
In balance, I'd prefer two excellent bass clarinet players to sopranos or not so excellent altos.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 19:20
Off in the distance, I can hear Dan Leeson screaming:
"GRAN PARTITTA"
"GRAN PARTITTA"
"GRAN PARTITTA"
...GBK
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-15 19:22
GBK:
please check the rules re: not pointing out spelling errors.
tacky of you to use poor ol' Dan Leeson to make an unauthorized point
5 minutes in the penalty box for you!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 19:25
Dan Leeson's personal "GRAN PARTITTA" crusade makes for great reading in the mailing list archives.
Given the chance, "poor 'ol Dan Leeson" probably would have written another 500 word essay on the subject...GBK
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2005-03-15 20:03
"Gran Partitta" indeed (I stand corrected, especially since I have the piece in front of me, and was scolded on this very issue before...)
Thanks you all for your feedback.
Mario Poirier
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-03-15 20:20
High A is not a problem on bass clarinet -- remember that with clarinets and saxes, the bigger the instrument, the easier it is to play altissimo.
Earplugs should not be necessary unless the bass clarinets are electronically amplified. Which would be musically inappropriate. For Mozart, that is.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-15 20:50
What an interesting discussion, I concur re: basses, with fine players, tonalities crossing the break should not cause much problem. I'm an alto cl promoter, so will point out that a low Eb alto will lack only the Basset's C [alto D] of range coverage. If I were going to try my small-bore Selmer-Paris to play the ?lower? B H part, I'd explore the possibility of converting my low Eb into a decent D by using one [or several] tapered plastic drink cups [bottoms cut out] in the bell, silver-painted [alum. foil ?] to avoid "snide remarks". Just a bit of gasoline on the fire ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-15 20:56
Where did I read - perhaps it was good ol' Dan Leeson - that in the original performance of the Gran Partithia, one of the Springer brothers probably had to borrow Stadler's basset horn to play the second part, because only Stadler's horn had all the low basset notes, and Stadler probably played first clarinet.
Does anyone recall where that story came from, or did I just hallucinate?
And if that's true, why didn't they just borrow an old pewter cup to create the notes, a la Don berger?
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2005-03-15 21:04
The notion of using a jurry-rigged low range extender certainly does not offend me. Thanks for the insight Don.
Actually, in the Nielsen wind quintet (and we are about to drift way out of topic here - maybe a new thread of nice tricks to extend the range of our instrument...), the bassoon has, actually scored in its part, the insertion of a piece of paper at its deep end in order to go one note down (to a "D"?). Anyway...
Mario Poirier
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-15 22:50
Larry - Al Rice in "Clarinet , Classical Period" page 70+ discusses Stadler AND mentions Vincent Springer. mainly re: Basset Clarinets, mention of B Horns also, but not your good story, dern it. I'll bet those were "High-Living" times for the best musicians, ala "Amadeus"?, so yes, quite possible. I will look [for Dave S] in Rendall's chapter on Bass etc cls for early ext. range bass [I'd call them Bassets !] history. Other authors likely will have discussed them as well. Enjoy these hist. searches. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-16 05:24
"GRAN PARTITTA" was written onto the autograph score, but not in Mozart's handwriting. Considering Mozart never used the word Partita (or Partitta) in any of his compositions, then it's probably not even right to refer to this serenade as "Gran Partitta". Apologies to Mr. Leeson...
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-03-16 19:50
Mozart never used the word partita ... interesting, based on what research, Liquorice? I'd be interested to know ... you're obviously a Mozart scholar, enlighten us.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-16 22:09
"Mozart never used the word partita ... interesting, based on what research, Liquorice? I'd be interested to know ... you're obviously a Mozart scholar, enlighten us."
I've studied Mozart's music all my life, but I wouldn't describe myself as a "Mozart scholar". The term "Partita" was used in the 16th century meaning variation, and was adopted by German composers from the end of the 17th century in the sense of Suite (nobody really knows why). But the Suite as a genre wasn't something commonly used by composers at the end of the 18th century, so you don't see Mozart giving titles to his movements like Sarabande or Courante.
Diz- If you can find one example of Mozart using the title "Partita", I'll buy you a box of reeds!
Post Edited (2005-03-16 22:27)
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2016-02-25 23:06
Ressurecting this post...
So, does anyone have the bass clarinet transcriptions of the basset horn parts?
It's a great idea.....I just wonder how it turned out?
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-02-27 01:10
I am rehearsing the piece now with 1 basset horn (on 3rd) and 1 bass clarinet (on 4th). The (good) bass clarinet player has a hell of a job playing all the high notes very softly. So dynamically the bass clarinet may be a problem. But with 2 basses this might be better. However the sound of the high bass clarinet does match very well with the basses horn.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-02-27 01:49
I haven't looked at the basset horn parts recently, but do they ever descend to low written C#, or just to C? If just C, hypothetically you could design an extension for the Eb alto clarinet that would allow you to play low written D with the low Eb key. It would just have to be a section of bore with a mechanism to connect the linkage normally used for low Eb. I don't have the ability to make this, but it seems like it could be very doable. Just a thought.
(Or just roll up some paper and put it in the bell.)
Post Edited (2016-02-27 02:01)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-27 02:10
The 2nd basset horn part has a few low Cs in it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2016-02-27 02:32
You're right, I just looked through it. But no low C#s. So if you transpose to Eb alto clarinet, you could extend the range to low D without worrying about affecting the low Eb.
Post Edited (2016-02-27 02:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-27 02:46
Low Ds and low Cs, but no low C#/Dbs for the 2nd basset horn, so that will work out nicely for alto clarinet with a low D extension fitted (cardboard tube in the bell).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bradfordlloyd
Date: 2016-02-27 16:25
Jeroen: Thanks for the insight. I had wondered how it would work with bass clarinets. It sounds like it's a challenge.
Chris/maxopf: I like the alto clarinet idea. I had considered doing it that way, but wondered if I would get funny looks from the other musicians. The cardboard tube is a great thought....I may just try it.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-02-27 16:32
Many -- even most -- of the basset horn entrances mirror the clarinets, with the same fingerings a fourth lower. You won't get that with bass clarinets or even altos.
Nevertheless, it's one of Mozart's masterworks. Despite the memories of Dan Leeson, I'd perform it on tenor saxophones and kazoos.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-27 16:35
Shouldn't be a problem as Leblanc basset horns look like Vito alto clarinets from a distance (and Leblanc basset horns have the wide alto clarinet bore), so an alto clarinet won't look out of place. It's those old Uebel basset horns that look odd - or 'agricultural'.
The cardboard tube will be well hidden within the bell too - just cut it to the right length for the alto clarinet low D.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2018-05-03 18:27
Revisiting this,
1) Stephen Fox will make low D extensions for Noblet alto clarinets. Not cheap, but you can get a used instrument and have him mod it for less than half of the cost of a used basset horn.
2) Does anyone know a source for transposed basset horn parts, to play them on alto clarinet?
Thanks,
Ralph
Post Edited (2018-05-04 15:09)
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