 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 17:12
I have a student currently working in Book 1(167 exercises) of the Kroepsch 416 Daily Studies (revised by Bellison). He is using the Carl Fischer edition.
Today he asked me what the "++" markings under certain notes in Exercise #86 meant.
I said: "um........ "
Having played through this book dozens of times, either I have always ignored it, or worse yet, probably never noticed it. As far as I can tell, the marking is not used in any other exercise.
Any idea?
BTW - The Lazarus method book also contains the first 167 Kroepsch exercises and (since it is a reprint of the Carl Fischer) the marking on #86 is there as well...GBK
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Author: RAMman
Date: 2005-03-15 17:53
The only place I have seen something similar is the Phil Woods sax sonata, where he intends the resonance of the note to be altered by changing fingering while maintaining the same pitch, but that's on a repeated note section. Hard enough on sax, wouldn't like to try on clarinet!!
Not sure if that is any help whatsoever.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 18:24
RAMman wrote:
> where he intends the resonance of the note to be
> altered by changing fingering while maintaining the same pitch,
Thanks for trying. I thought of the same thing myself, but unfortunately, it wouldn't apply in this case, as the notes are running 32nd notes (Demi semi quavers), and not repeated ...GBK
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-03-15 18:29
In horn music, a plus sign means that the note is to be played "stopped", that is to say, with the right hand jammed firmly into the bell to produce a similar effect to that of a mute.
By the same logic, ++ in a clarinet piece presumably means, to be played with both hands jammed in the bell.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 18:35
David Peacham wrote:
> By the same logic, ++ in a clarinet piece presumably means, to
> be played with both hands jammed in the bell.
That's exactly like how some of my beginners sound. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-15 19:30
Mordent to the upper note.
yo - the back cover of it advertizes my High School Clarinet Teacher Leon Lester's book 
I'm 89% sure that it's a mordent. In fact I'd bet the farm on it, but it's a very small farm (just 2 chickens and a duck.....)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-15 19:40
btw - I have a version of book 1 that looks to be from the 1920's (though not 100% sure of the date, it makes stuff from the 60's look new)
That marking is there too and no explanation.
But Volume 4 does use mordents and they are marked like mordents.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-15 19:57
Thanks David.
Unless someone comes up with another explanation, I guess yours sounds as reasonable as anything else.
It certainly would have been nice to find a footnote at the bottom of the page, especially since this marking is only used once in the entire book.
Then again, it is Carl Fischer...
BTW - I use Lester's 60 Rambles with my beginners. Good text...GBK
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-03-16 03:00
GBK
do not despair..........
I looked in my copy (same edition) and although Leon had his scribblings throughout, he made no written reference to teh ++
However, being that the exercise is a big crescendo and decrescendo, it's a PPP on the D, a FFF on the F#, a PPP on the D and a PP on the E.
Am I correct??????? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
regards
dennis
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-16 03:10
Dennis... I also looked in my personal copy to see if Dave Etheridge had made any reference to it when we went through the book in college.
Nothing - (perhaps he didn't know either)
I like David Blumberg's idea, as it does slightly change the way exercise is played, but am still puzzled by this notation which is used only in #86...GBK
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-03-16 07:12
I really didn't want to know this, but I overlooked it every time a played the exercise.... No reference to it what so ever (Carl Fischer edition)....But you already knew that.
Trumpet players have sometimes a "+" in their notation, I believe that it means mute playing...I hope that it doesn't mean double mute playing.......
I also find the explanation from David believable, but I'm surely going to ask around
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-16 11:59
I just looked at it and thought "what makes sense here". Also, in the book for Violin "Dont 24 Prep exercises" which are preps for Kreutzer and Rode's studies, there is a study which says "for the practice of the Mordente and Appoggiatura" (ex 11) but it it not notated in the music - there is an example of it above the page showing how to play it if the player wishes to add the mordent.
My guess would be that the original Kroepsch (or at least my copy which is older than even GBK may have missed a notation such as that.
Remember that from time to time Kroepsch would have a study which was different from the others (such as the 64th exercise - no other study in book 1 has all 64th notes).
So that one was possibly a study of adding the mordent if the player wished to do so, but the notation to do that somehow got lost in the reprintings.
Post Edited (2005-03-16 12:00)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-03-16 15:21
Assuming the notes marked ++ don't have alternate fingerings, I'm stumped.
Did Kroepsch write these exercises for violin originally? If so, it could be an indication to go higher on a low string rather than crossing to a higher string.
Ken Shaw
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Author: CPW
Date: 2005-03-16 15:51
Maybe Kroepsch was a Klezmer at heart, and ++ indicates to a a Kvetch
or Kreach?
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Author: CPW
Date: 2005-03-16 16:11
that was because there were no italics.
See.......I told you he was a Klezmer at heart.
Speaking of Der Frei-schvitz, Blummy, is there is a schvitz on Camac street in Phila?
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
Post Edited (2005-03-16 16:12)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-16 16:32
Attachment: Kroepsch.JPG (217k)
Here is exercise #86 for those who want to see the notation in question...GBK
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Author: CPW
Date: 2005-03-16 19:43
a single + is a left hand pizzicato in strings.
guess that doesnt help
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-03-18 18:53
Dear GBK
My suspicion is that it refers to a fingering rather than a mordent...on top of that the sign you have given which is like " is not referred to as an indication of a mordent in either of my books of notation...these are the Harvard Dictionary of Music and the Peguin book of notation.
David Dow
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-18 18:59
I'll rest my case that it indeed is a mordent by this:
There is that exact marking several times over both the D and later on an E - it couldn't possibly be a fingering
Post Edited (2005-03-18 19:01)
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-03-19 02:12
Yeah, but [assuming it's an in-the-key up and down ornamentation, or half-step flick] that impromptu marking over the e natural on the 2nd beat in the last line of the page seemingly breaks the logical pattern established by the 2-octave D naturals on the 1st beats. v/r Ken
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-03-19 12:42
It is interesting that the ++ only appears in this one exercise, 86. Actual mordents don't show up until 391, 401 and 412. I haven't a clue what the ++ is for but assume it's not a mordent since the proper notation for such is used in later exercises. However, my book IV is not a Bellison. Would someone check their Bellison version of 391/401/412 (in book IV) and see if the proper notation for the mordent is used or if the ++ shows up again?
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2005-03-19 13:00)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-19 20:41
In Hummel's piano method he uses + to indicate a slight accent, and ^ a more emphatic one.
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