 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dummer musiker
Date: 2005-03-04 00:22
Can you use vasaline as a temporary substitute for cork grease? Bassoons sometimes do...
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-03-04 01:24
Vaseline seems somehow to reach the glue that holds the cork on, and soften it.
It seems also to damage the cork structure, such that it loses resilience.
Bassoon tenon corks don't have quite the same demands on them that clarinet corks do...
- There is a larger cork area, which means it is less desirable to have significant compression of the cork while the instrument is assembled, otherwise the joints would be too tight to put together.
- Because the tenons are longer, they are less inclined to wobbling. A firmer fit of the cork on a clarinet is usually necessary to stop the centre tenon wobbling.
- Because of the nature of the construction, and the layout of keys, less of a screwing action can be used on a bassoon during assembly.
Because of all the above, the function of cork grease on a bassoon is more for sealing a relatively loose -fitting cork. On a clarinet the cork is usually a much tighter fit in order to contribute to security of the assembly. Because of this tight fit, the main function of the cork grease is to lubricate the cork sufficiently that the instrument can be assembled with reasonable ease, and without damaging the cork.
IMHO
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Author: Marnix van den Berg
Date: 2005-03-04 10:58
As long as it's 100% pure, acid-free it shouldn't be a problem, I think. I've often used it when I'd forgotten or run out of cork-grease.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-03-04 11:51
Petroleum jelly is a solvent for some plastics, including that used in Hot Glue sticks - it can also lift the finish off wood.
That said, it's effective as a lubricant for the cork.
I use ChapStik type lip balm for assembly of my clarinet - it's certainly cheaper than the repackaged, unflavored versions sold at your music store...
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-04 12:01
I use lip balm [when I'm out of cork grease]... it's small, compact, and just like cork grease!
-Lindsie
Post Edited (2005-03-05 13:52)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-03-04 12:08
Which cork grease?!!!
It has very little in comon with superior cork greases..... Alisyn, and the products that Omar Henderson sells. Neither does vaseline. IMHO.
http://www.doctorsprod.com/
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-03-04 12:48
Once is ok
More ....NO
Works ok metal to metal on sax neck piece.
Second the motion on the docs product.
(Just waiting for someone to ask about KY jelly)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-04 13:04
Cork grease is good for your lips too..
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-04 15:36
Alseg and SB [et al] have said what I would, agree. Pet. Jelly, [V is a trademark] is fine as a light-weight lubricant for metals and body use, for cork, the various "greases" prob. based on lanolin, are preferable and are known to NOT cause any problems. I have found the C G's [quite "viscous"] sold under our major Cl maker's names to be OK, with Doc LOH's version to be the best, IMHO. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-04 21:47
I had a stick shift Hudson years ago that had a cork clutch immersed in kerosene.....a real smooth shifter.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-03-05 10:45
"Vaseline"
A repairmain in Ypsilanti, MI replaced the corks on an instrument of mine a few years ago. When I picked it up, he asked if I wanted the corks greased, and gave me a funny look. When I asked what the question was about, he told me this story.
Even longer ago, he had overhauled an instrument for a clarinetist in the Detroit Symphony. When this guy came to pick up his instrument, he blew up when he found out that there was cork grease on the corks. Said that cork grease made the corks deteriorate. So this guy made the tech replace the brand-new corks. The DSO guy said his corks lasted much longer when greased with vaseline.
(This begs the question, just how long did this guy want his corks to last? It follows the caricature clarinetist - a cheapskate.)
Vaseline is a known quantity - its formulation hasn't changed in 70 years. Cork grease is a different animal - there are dozens and dozens of formulations. Can anyone tell me what is in them?
Some people put corks on with rubber cement. I can see that Vaseline might loosen corks installed in this manner, especially if drenched in the stuff.
|-(8^)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-03-05 12:16
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived cork grease and a synthetic cork grease)
There are a couple plant derived cork greases on the market which I feel will help preserve cork for a longer period of time than petroleum based greases such as Vaseline. Several major manufacturers sell petroleum based cork greases which have a similar composition to Chap Stick lip treatment (read the labels of the registered trademarked product and generics for comparison of their composition). The aim of cork grease in the short run is to make assembly and disassembly easier by reducing friction. The aim in the long run IMO is to reduce friction but also preserve the functional cork structure as well.
Cork is wood, specifically the outer bark of the cork tree. IMHO petroleum based products are not good for wood. My own experimentation indicates that petroleum based greases will infiltrate the cell walls of the cork, weaken them, and lead to premature collapse of the box shaped cellular structure of the cork which is responsible for its functional role. These cube shaped cells have the unique ability to be compressed and then when compressive force is removed, return to their original 3 dimensional cube shape (rebound). It is this compressibility and rebound which allows the cork on tenons to repeatedly form an airtight seal.
Plant derived cork grease with oils and waxes from plants have been shown to preserve wood - historically. Petroleum based products, or wood of any sort exposed or immersed in petroleum, will disintegrate wood at a faster rate because of the breakdown of the cell walls and cellulose bonding in wood structure than untreated wood.
There are several synthetic greases including Alisyn and others created for the aerospace program which will not infiltrate cork cellular structure and cause cork cell wall failure. These synthetic greases are therefore neutral in their apparent preservation effects on the cork but do not cause the destruction common to petroleum based products.
As mentioned, depending on the type of adhesive used to put the cork on the tenon, petroleum based products often will dissolve or soften the bond of the cork to the tenon. Plant derived cork grease and synthetics will not loosen the common adhesives.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-03-05 12:31)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-05 12:35
It beats me why someone hasn't marketed a clarinet incorporating silicone rubber "O"-ring seals. Two or three spaced T,B,M ....no adhesive to worry about and should last almost forever.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Kel
Date: 2005-03-05 13:40
There is a music store in California that has developed something like BobD describes for the mouthpiece end of saxophone necks. As I recall it is not cheap and you must send the neck to them for modification, but it has the advantage of using different thicknesses of O-rings to fit different mouthpiece bores (a problem for saxophonists), and, of course no more recorking or greasing of necks.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-03-05 13:41
Bob - excellent idea. Our instruments are a mixture of tradition and ever increaseing knowledge about acoustics and materials. Instrument manufacturers unfortunately do not look to the longevity of cork seals as a long term problem since they are easily replaced by repair technicians. The idea of "O" rings would seem to be superior to the synthetic cork materials that are sometimes now used in the traditional way as regular cork. This would require retooling some machinery to cut rings on the tenon end (loss of strength?). I have asked several "high up" insiders in the instrument manufacturing business why innovations are not more forthcoming - the answer ... "Tradition, .... no customer demand, .... we still sell as many as we used to so why change"
Unfortunately manmade cork has yet to equal the number of repeated compressions and rebounds of the natural product - perhaps new technology will conquer this shortcoming. Nature engineered the cork cell structure to be stronger with a hexagonal shaped cube than the hollow spheres which characterize manmade cork. Manmade cork has the advantage of not being affected by petroleum based greases (if you choose the butyl rubber variety) but fails quicker in compression and rebound repeats than natural cork.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-03-06 07:05
This is not a standard sort of application for O-rings, which are more normally used for situations where a seal is vital, but where assembly/disassembly is a rare event. Lubricant is required. They are used particularly in situations where there is high fluid pressure, where the groove must be wide enough for the fluid pressure to get in against one wall of the groove to press the O-ring against the other wall, such that the more pressure there is, the more strongly the O-ring is crushed, and hence the more it expands radially to the surface it has to seal against.presses against the surface.
Also, anybody who has replaced O-rings will know that they do tend to adopt a permanent crushed state. So even though they are made from elastomers, permanent distortion is still an issue.
At least they are easy to replace, PROVIDING a source of the correct size is readily available. For may people, sheet cork may be easier to obtain!
A certain oboe has O-rings in the tenons. There is precious little I can find in the internet about it except for an interview with the maker, where the O-rings are discussed:
http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/DR/DR12.1/DR12.1.Strait.Sparks.html
I have worked on one such oboe. I note three points:
1. It would seem that O-rings in such an application require just as much lubricant as does cork.
2. Just like assembling O-ringed plumbing fittings.... When I pressed the two sections of oboe together, significant axial force was needed to crush the first O-Ring into the socket, and as soon as it had entered, the sections jerked rapidly together until the second O-ring was about to enter. A lot more force was once again needed, until that second O-ring had entered, and the assembly was then completed with another jerk. IMHO this rather uncontrolled jerky assembly is a recipe for crashing keys into other keys, much more so than it is with the traditional cork joints, which slide smoothly together.
3. O-rings have a much smaller contact area with the timber, so if there are grain blemishes in the timber surface, or oval socket, there is higher potential for leaks than with cork, which is actually extremely trustworthy in this respect.
Nothing is perfect!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-03-06 11:25
As always, Thank you Gordon. When theory meets practice there are always practical considerations to deal with and the mind has a clever way of smoothing theoretical transitions.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-06 22:24
Thanks Gordon...and Omar...maybe elasticized string ?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-04-08 12:22
O- Rings?? Come on anyone suggesting that had never had an O ring failure on a Nikonus underwater camera. They are high maintenance and require silicone lubrication to work effectively. Sometimes the simple soulution is the best. Just wrap teflon tape around your joints and never grease again! But a tube of the Dr's lubrancant is the trick. It's actually great on squeeking hinges, binding doors and windows. Actually I think Dr. Omar needs to do one of those late night infomercial and sell that stuff to non clarinet players for hundreds of houshold uses! If he could get it to get hot when you blow on it, that would be the shizzle!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-04-08 13:55
Can you imagine the number of objections from the "string crowd" when cork was proposed as a substitute.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-04-09 03:26
Tom-
Interesting points of what the Doctor's Products can do! We should try to make a list of all the uses for it!
By the way, I enjoyed how you said 'shizzle'. It made me chuckle!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-04-09 06:07
The general problem with elastomers, is that they tend to have high friction coefficients, which is not really what we want. Perhaps there are exceptions available as O-rings? I certainly would not include silicon rubber!
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