 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: alto_and_bass_clarinetist
Date: 2005-03-02 02:23
Well, I was playing my bass clarinet and my tenor sax one day in pit orchestra, and I thought of something... If the clarinet and saxophone families are so similar, then why are the BASS and TENOR both in Bb, while the soprano clarinets and saxes are in Bb, altos both in Eb, and Sopranino clars. and saxes in Eb... Then I went home and thought about it some more.
...
And now I'm thoroughly confused.
Each Clar. has a Sax Counterpart, right?
Eb Sopranino Sax - Eb Soprano (Sopranino?) Clar.
Bb Soprano Sax - Bb Soprano Clar.
Eb Alto Sax - Eb Alto Clar.
Bb Tenor Sax - Bb Bass Clarinet
Eb Baritone Sax - Eb Contralto Clar.
Bb Bass Sax - Bb Contrabass Clar.
So I don't understand why everything up to the tenor/bass part matches, but the rest doesn't. Am I missing out on something? Shouldn't it go something like:
Eb Sopranino Sax - Eb Sopranino Clar.
Bb Soprano Sax - Bb Soprano Clar.
Eb Alto Sax - Eb Alto Clar.
Bb Tenor Sax - Bb Tenor Clarinet
Eb Baritone Sax - Eb Baritone (Maybe even Contralto) Clar.
Bb Bass Sax - Bb Bass Clar.
...
Well, any help is appreciated.
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Author: MikeyBoy
Date: 2005-03-02 02:45
i believe u had it right the first time. Bb Tenor and Bb Bass R the same*in like...pep literature/marching literature, they R like interchangable for those poor bass kiddies who do'nt wanna learn NE thing else*. And Eb Bari and EEb ContraAlto R the same.
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Author: Neil
Date: 2005-03-02 02:54
What about the basset horn? Is there/should there be a sax equivalent to it? I think your system makes sense; I don't know how we arrived at the present system but I suspect that, like most things in life, it was not really planned out in advance. Myself, I'm still trying to understand the hot dogs/buns thing.
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-03-02 09:27
That's what is known as "begging the question". You're starting with the premise that they're very similar, then wondering why they're actually not.
They're different families of instruments that developed at different times. The names of the instruments that play the same parts in an ensemble don't necessarily match. It seems to me that the reason for the discrepancy is that, comparing clarinets and saxes in corresponding keys, the clarinet has a better range down low. Therefore:
*The B flat clari has the same pitch as the B flat soprano sax, but is better (and more extended) down low. It is similar in effective range to the E flat alto and the B fat soprano combined. The low notes on the alto match in pitch the low ones on the clari (although many would say the clarinet is more versatile over its whole range). The altos in a band are the equivalent voicing of the 3rd clarinets.
*The alto clarinet has the same pitch as the alto sax. But the alto clari is better down low (and has lower range), the alto sax better up high. So the alto clari is actually more of a tenor voice in the band. It matches the range of the tenor sax.
*The bass clarinet has the same pitch as the tenor sax, but is better and more extended down low, so it actually has the role of the bari sax. And so on.
See the pattern? A clarinet generally plays a similar role to the saxophone of the next pitch down. The names don't really matter.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-03-02 11:35
The reason for the discrepancy is very simple.
The sax was designed essentially by one man, who planned it as a set of instruments from the start. Naturally enough, he gave the instruments logical pitch designations based on those of human voices.
The clarinet just evolved. At first there was just the clarinet, whether in D or C or Bb or A, or even in B natural. I doubt anyone even bothered to think whether it was a soprano or alto or whatever. Then someone came up with the idea of adding some extra keys on the end, to give a basset register. This made most sense if the whole instrument was deeper, so they put a big bell on it and called it a basset horn. Horn refers specifically to the bell - this was long before the horrid practice of using "horn" to mean any wind instrument whatever. Then someone came up with the idea of making a big clarinet, a whole octave down from the ordinary one. They didn't think of the existing clarinet as a soprano, so they didn't think "one octave down from soprano, must be a tenor". They just thought "big equals bass". Then eventually someone went another octave down, and called it a contrabass. Then when the EEb was invented, there's no standard term for "between bass and contrabass", so they came up with the utterly illogical contra-alto.
If we were to rename the whole clarinet family, then one logical scheme would be the one alto_and_bass_clarinetist has proposed. An alternative, better in my view, is the one William the Conqueror hints at, when the ordinary clarinet is considered the alto rather than the soprano. The first scheme matches the transpositions between the two families, the second scheme matches the bottom notes.
But it ain't gonna happen. We're stuck with the mess we've got.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-02 13:38
Ah, congrats, you have re-discovered the misnomer of our tenor cl being conventionally called a bass. D P's and other's explanations are correct. IMHO, naming goes {way] back to the basic Vocal classifications of S A T B [look-up music history], with many sub-classes like mezzo-sop, contralto, baritone etc, as I see it, all [loosely] based on individual ranges. I often tease my daughter-in-law, who is presently rehearsing, as a 2nd sop!, Der Flieg. Hollander [that "flying Dutchman], what voice [of some 4-5 sops] she is in today !! All in all, I often refer to my bass cl as a tenor cl, and get a "queer" look [B C, before comprehension]. To answer someones's question, Yes, there have been saxes made in the key of F, called a ----alto, like the Basset Horn is an alto variant. I view the term Basset to apply to the keying of the added 3 lower notes to the conventional cl. My thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-03-02 15:13
Because of the ranges of the clarinets, maybe such names aren't directly applicable, but we must have some designations to differentiate them. One might argue, like Don B., that a bass clarinet should more correctly be called a tenor clarinet, but one could also argue that a low-C bass, which goes down as low as a bari sax should be called a baritone clarinet, especially since they are played most frequently in their lower register. But, since the range of the bass clarinet also (correct me if I'm wrong) pretty much covers that of the alto sax, well... how about we call it an alto-tenor-baritone clarinet or maybe, for short, an altenbar clarinet? The b-flat soprano could become the sopalto clarinet. The alto could become the alten clarinet, etc.
--Don Poulsen, altenbar clarinetist
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-02 16:18
and the basset horn could be renamed the "basset horn clarinet"
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-02 18:22
Interesting comments, Don P et al all sorts of naming possibilities. As to saxes [vs] clarinets, to me its a chicken/egg problem. Of course the cl is the older and of wider range/compass, 3 1/2 to 4 octaves vs the 2 1/2-3 for sax, due to cyl vs conical bores . The bassoon [?oboe also?] out-ranges cls tho, Why/How?? Its always a good day when I learn something new! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-03-03 05:34
I have to agree with don. Because we register in 12ts and not octaves like the conical bore instruments, we have enough range that the classical names are somewhat of a misnomer.
While a Bass with only a low Eb is missing a 4th or a 5th from the typical bass range, the extra range of a clarinet means that a Bass Clarinet can cover the entire Alto, Tenor, and Baritone range without much struggle.
Similarly, The Bb "soprano" clarinet can cover all of the soprano, alto, and most of the tenor range.
This is why the alto clarinet is so unused - its just not necessary - any line written for the "home" range of an alto clarinet can be covered by either the Bb or the Bass and in most cases either - depending on the sound you're looking for.
This just isn't true of saxes - which have a range that's a 5th smaller - so to get a certain tone quality, you really do need them spaced every 5th.
The only reason that one typically sees Eb contrabasses (contra-altos) instead of Bb ones is that the bottom part of a Bb contra's range is pretty useless for most music (and getss pretty unwieldly - you have to ask a contra, very politely, to play each note - you can't just demand a note from one and expect it that very instant.) A Bb contrabass that goes to low C can hit ~50 Hz - you can start to hear the individual vibrations. A few more notes, and you'd just hear pulses instead of a tone.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-03 18:40
TKS, Shorthand , for your comments - While waiting a term for starting at Mich State back in the dark ages, I took some "business" high school courses, one of which was Gregg Shorthand, still recall some of it, didn't make much use of it tho! !! Your comments re: the [and my] alto are appropriate, due to the cl's wide range-ability the usual 4th/5th separation of "family members" provides much duplication of note playing, so [to me] the differences in "tonal character" is their best attribute. Playing mainly bass cl in comm band, I see a few cues for alto, and play them, also scanning the alto cl parts for ?important/individual? parts needed, and transpose [or grab my alto if convenient], to fill-out the cl choir. FUN, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris Chaloner
Date: 2005-03-03 21:47
It's quite common to find very old British military band arrangements with parts marked "E flat tenor clarinet"....
Chris
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-03-04 05:46
basset horn just mean "little bass" clarinet... so it's slightly smaller than the bass... which makes it an alto clarinet. Basset horn is just an alto clarinet in a different key, which a different bore, a little longer (to go down to low C)... that sounds better... I like basset. And Basset clarinet is still a soprano clarinet. I will have to scan these pics of metal clarinets that I have found from a leblanc add. It lists the family with tenor clarinets.
--CG
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-03-04 06:00
Attachment: metalleblanc.jpg (636k)
Here is the pic. SO I guess the basset is more tenor? Thas what this seems to say. hmm
Post Edited (2005-03-04 06:01)
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-03-04 07:09
aww, sorry Alex, there is only one BBb Octo in the world. And Leblanc has a deathgrip on it. hehehe. Maybe you can try getting one of the three existing EEb octos. :P
--CG
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-03-04 07:14
So they go through all the trouble of designing it and only make one? Bummer. Was looking forward to years of "If I win the lottery" fantasizing on that one.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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