 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-22 06:22
Hi. I'm mainly a jazz guy and hoping to get some advice from any of you "bass-or-lower" clarinetists.
I've never played clarinet, but play flute and other woodwinds.
I have ALWAYS wanted to play bass clarinet and now in my late 30s I can finally almost afford one. I've come to realize though, that the low Eb is just not low enough for my tastes, and need one with a low C. But then I saw this contra-alto for sale on a website.
So my main question is this...
Would it be wise for a clarinet beginner to jump straight into the contra-alto as a "teach-yourself" horn, or should I work my way down starting with a regular bass?
Also, are reeds hard to find? Can I use bari sax reeds?
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-02-22 06:46
Why not get both? I am sure you will eventually...
Looking at things from a pratical viewpoint....
The bass clarinet allows you to play standing up or sitting down. It's not terribly heavy to hold it like a saxophone, even the added weight of low C is manageable for most. If you are used to playing standing up in jazz, this is an advantage.
You pretty much need to sit down in order to play the contra-alto, of any model and make. It is substantially heavier than the bass, it will be close to impossible to hold it like a sax while you play, and the awkwardness will put strain on your joints. Playing it sitting down is the only option. Will this suit your style?
Bass clarinet reeds are common, easy to get from most music stores.
Vandoren baritone sax reeds fit Selmer, Bundy, or Buffet contra-altos. Relatively easy to find.
Vandoren contrabass reeds only fit Leblanc contra-altos. Rarer, may require special ordering.
My suggestions, get a nice low Eb bass and likewise a contra-alto. You will still come out further ahead than if you had bought a low C bass clarinet.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-02-22 13:40
Although I've never played contraalto, I don't think it's something you need to work your way down to. You can jump straight to it if you want.
As to what you should get, I think it depends on what your plans are. Will you be playing it with an ensemble or just alone for your own pleasure? Bass clarinet parts are often more critical than contraalto parts and ensembles find basses more useful than contraaltos. On the other hand, contraalto clarinets and clarinetists are rarer and would be appreciated in a group that has sufficient bass clarinetists. But not all works have contraalto parts, so it's wise for a contraalto player to have a bass clarinet available for those times.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-02-22 14:49
The "contra-alto" clarinet (which is actually the bass of the family, the bass clarinet being the nominal tenor of the clarinet family but let's not quibble) is a "different" horn, no question there. And, like the not maligned enough alto clarinet, it's of limited utility in all but modern music.
All of the physical factors alluded to above are good reasons for not picking the contra-alto over the bass. Hell, the bass clarinet is even in limited demand if you are frequenting the world of community orchestras (which seldom have the depth of instrumentatiot to play much of the Romantic era, where the bass clarinet is usually present)
And, the rarity of the call for the contra-alto means that you'll be sitting out or transposing parts quite often, even in "wind ensemble" music. Add to that the problem with keeping one in proper regulation (most used horns are beat to death school instruments to start with, and them long rods is easy to bend and bind), and the prospect of owning one is a dim picture indeed.
I own a significant number of horns (too many, my wife would say), but despite several opportunities to pick one up "on the cheap", I've resisted the minimal urge to buy a contra-alto (even a metal Hovenagel design styled one). There's always something more vital to purchase than one of these, the feelings of thousands of high school and college players to the contrary, and their comparitive rarity on the secondary market does nothing but reenforce that opinion.
The only time since my misspent youth that I've stuck a contra-alto mouthpiece in my mouth is for the two musicals that I've played that used the horn, and in each case I could have faked the part on the extended range bass had I not been obliged to be a purist.
If, on the other hand, you feel compelled to own an extended range bass clarinet, the advent of the student model of same provides an easier path to ownership. Even a new student horn kept in regulation would be better than a well-used school contra-alto bought on the secondary market.
In a tangentally related matter:
My lead tenor player brought his bass sax to rehearsal this Saturday so that we could take some headshots for the website. Like many other bass saxes (virtually all of which are used, naturlich), this one had the "band around the bell" rolling instrument stand (a Harrison product?) installed. Actually, it had had one installed for many years, as the bell was distorted and chewed up in several locations from different installations of the same device.
And, like every other horn (bass or baritone) that has used that stand in my past experience, the "long rods" on the horn that operate the low end keys are bent and binding throughout. A very long instrument, designed to be suspended from a hook attached to the rear of the long tube, is instead forcing its own weight down on the mechanism as it is borne by the bell between two tone holes.
Conn saxes are hard enough to operate without binding them up in the bargain. This one was so hard to operate below low C that it was reduced to a mere whisper at the bottom of its range,.
The moral of the story is two fold: Don't use those stupid stands, and large horns are hell to keep well adjusted no matter how careful you are with them. Well, and bass saxes are a bitch to transport...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: William Hughes ★2017
Date: 2005-02-22 15:09
I will disagree with Terry just a bit. I bought one of those used--probably school-owned--contraaltos about three and a half years ago, a plastic Bundy. I had it overhauled by our own David Spiegelthal, who also refaced a Selmer C* mouthpiece for it. Granted, I am only a recreational player, but the contra is my only horn and I play year round. No bent rods, no loose pads, one loose screw (the contra's, not mine). This has been an exceptionally durable and reliable unit for me...and fun too. I love the ability to transpose everything from string bass to bassoon parts. Sure it's kind of a fifth wheel in the band and awkward as h.ll to tote around (one of those luggage carriers with wheels helps). Still in all "low is the way to go and E flat is where it's at."
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-22 15:53
A million thanks to all for your indepth informative replies. You've given me much to consider.
Yes, I would like to have both some day, but I can only buy one for now.
I don't see myself ever in an ensemble situation. My plans are to use it in my compositions and recording. I have a home studio. Also for perfomance in small jazz combos, if I get good enough.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-22 15:58
from my experience, the contra alto...or maybe it was the contra bass, come to think of it, is harer to play than the regular bass clarinet. then again, perhaps the school's instrument was bad and it was equipt with a bad reed. I don't know.
I personally like the low notes better and feel that if you buy a bass, why not buy one with a low C? it seems foolish to buy one that only goes to low Eb, but that's just my opinion. I play one that goes to an Eb and it's fine, but I'd say when buying, go all out and get the low C.
I also think the bass is more playable- like Bassethorn said, you can play standing up. and it's an awesome jazz instrument!
<3 bass clar!
I'm sure other posters have better info/opinons than I, but, figured I'd chip in.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-02-22 23:58
I love Contra clarinets!
In middle school, when it came time to switch from regular Bb, I went straight to Contralto. Then I never went to bass clarinet until like 10th grade.
I think going on to a contra clarinet, skipping the bass cl, isn't such a bad move. But it is also good to keep up on playing all of them. Currently, I am in college and my main focus is bass clarinet and clarinet.
(I play bass cl in orchestra, but have played alto, Bb, and the contras in the wind ensemble... now I am playing Eb in the clarinet choir!) You too can play the whole family with the resources. Maybe the best way to try each one out is by renting or borrowing from friends. There have been times where I have given my Bb playing friends pointers on playing bass and contra, I just give it to them, tell them to blow, then correct them on their problems.
You can probably get a used hard rubber contralto for fairly cheap and still be able to afford a bass clarinet. hehe. I am poor and in college, so I can barely afford reeds. lol
Good luck!
--CG
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-23 05:19
"I personally like the low notes better and feel that if you buy a bass, why not buy one with a low C? it seems foolish to buy one that only goes to low Eb"
Playing a low Eb bass didn't seem to hurt Eric Dolphy or Louis Sclavis, my favorite bass clarinetists. I'm guessing they chose it because it is lighter and easier to play standing up.
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-23 08:46
"Playing a low Eb bass didn't seem to hurt Eric Dolphy or Louis Sclavis, my favorite bass clarinetists. I'm guessing they chose it because it is lighter and easier to play standing up."
Actually, I was just listening to Dolphy playing "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise" and he obviously had a low C.
But that doesn't matter. I'm not trying to be Dolphy, as much as I love the guy.
Post Edited (2005-02-23 09:20)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-23 11:11
"Actually, I was just listening to Dolphy playing "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise" and he obviously had a low C."
Really? From what album is that recording of Softly? In the 10 or so CDs I have with Dolphy (as a leader or a sideman) he didn't play lower than D, and when I asked about it on this forum, people explained that it's possible to play a low D on a low Eb bass clarinet.
Either way, Dolphy playing a low Db and C won't make me love him more.
Actually, I recommend on a low C bass clarinet if you can afford it. It depends mostly on what you are going to use it for. Since I either improvise or play music that is composed for me, the low C gives more options.
Post Edited (2005-02-23 11:12)
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-02-24 00:26
Contra-alto is no harder than bass clarinet if you're in fairly good condition. Reeds for a Leblanc are hard to find, though. Vandorens don't work too well in my findings. Ricos, on the other hand... Well, they're my best bet.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-02-24 02:13
Jim ... my only advice ... if you've got your heart set on a bass member of the clarinet family ... go for it.
Since money's not necessarily an issue ... the world's your oyster. You might, however (and I'm assuming you're American) just find a mentor to help you along. As you're obviously an musician already, the learning process will be much easier than if you were a rank beginner.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-24 04:02
Thanks again everyone.
Clarnibass, the Dolphy CD is "The Illinois Concert" with young Herbie Hancock.
I suppose he could have got ahold of a different horn at the time. Good CD if you can find it.
Money is somewhat of an issue actually, and I'm sure I won't be getting a top of the line professional instrument. I don't mind plastic as opposed to wood.
I'm originally from Colorado, USA, but have been living in Yokohama, Japan for the past four years. I will probably shop for one when I'm visiting in the states next month since everything is more expensive in Japan.
Post Edited (2005-02-24 16:43)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-24 06:25
I have that CD and I'll listen to Softly right now. I never really paid attention to it as far as how low he plays, so I probably missed it. Around what time on the track is the low C? Or does he use it all the time?
About your bass clarinet, how much are you willing to spend? Do you think you might buy a top new instrument eventually like a Buffet or Selmer? If not, I'd suggest you buy a good but not too expensive instrument. Maybe an old Selmer or something like that. I'm not really knowledgable on used instrumnets.
If you think you want to buy a new top instrument eventually then I suggest one of two options. Either buying one right now, or, buying a cheap insturment now, and then buying the expensive one when you can. Basically I think your first instrumnet (if you plan on chaging to a better one later) should be either cheap or one that you will be able to sell for around the same price you bought it.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2005-02-24 06:32
Don't be afraid to look for used basses. I picked up my used Bundy bass on consignment at a music shop for aout $600. It isn't the greatest bass clarinet, but it has a nice, rich low register, and I got into all-state band on it.
What made the biggest difference was the mouthpiece. Get a good one.
anyway, moral of this story: If you can find an ok used horn, you'll have money left over for a good mouthpiece and for some reed experimentation. I ended up using the Vandoren blue box, like on all my instruments.
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-24 16:29
At the risk of revealing my ignorance, it occured to me we could be talking in different terms of pitch. Does low C mean concert C, as the C on the piano? Or is it actually a Bb on piano? If so, then Dolphy is indeed playing a low Eb, if as you say it's possible to go half a step lower.
Again, I've never played clarinet of any kind, so I'm dumb about these things.
I always just assume concert pitch.
I was at the Yamaha store today in Tokyo. I saw a low C bass (new) for 813,000 yen which comes out to around $8,000. That's higher than I want to pay but if I just can't find anything else I like by the end of next month I might just bite the bullet and get it.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-02-24 17:04
I am with Max. Use basses present a better option for those who wish to experiment with them. Often you will be able to pick up a specimen for much less than half the cost of a new one. My vote: get a used one in as good condition as you can find.
Other things to consider are materials and makes. Lots have been discussed on this board, search the archives.
Both my basses are student models and I picked them up cheaply and locally. Both used and of synthetic materials, which offer the benefit of low maintenance. The Selmer USA has a smaller bore than the Vito and I do detect a difference in sound and resistance. The plateau keys on the Vito is flat whereas the Selmer USA's are concave which I find a little awkward. Vandoren B44 and B45 seem to work well with Vandoren 3 reeds.
One practical thing you need to look for, is the condition of the peg assembly. Two things: does the screw grip the peg tightly? You need to make sure it does so you are not constantly bothered with a slipping peg and the fear of bottoming out the instrument; also, does the peg have a rubber stop to grip the floor surface? My Vito has the slipping peg problem, but has a nice big rubber ball. The Selmer on the other hand, the peg did not have a rubber end, so I have to search for one in local home repair store. But the peg assembly is nice and tight. My recommendation is to always wear a neck strap for better handling of the instrument.
This applies to other horns too: basset horn, alto, and the contras. If you drop one of those things, it's going to cost you big.
Willy
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-24 18:03
Oh, my God. C = Bb!
That's what I get for ass/uming.
Very sorry, Clarnibass! You're right about Dolphy's low Eb axe.
Well, hey at least I got you to listen to the Illinois Concert again!
So then, here's my next stupid question: If you can actually get a low D from an Eb bass, can you somehow squeeze out a low B on a C bass?
And what is the bottom note of a contra-alto anyway, in piano notes?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-25 10:17
I agree with Max and Basset. That Yamaha new bass definitely is not worth $8,000. A new Buffet or Selmer cost $6,100-$6,500 (in the USA and Europe). I'm not sure how things work in Japan or how the prices are there, but it looks like a used instrument is the way to go for you. I've never played a Yamaha bass so I don't know how they are, but if you can find a used one it's probably worth it to at least try it.
About that Dolphy CD, I listened to it maybe hundresds of times before, but not in the last few month, so thanks for reminding me.
I did mean low C on the clarinet, which is a low Bb. Dolphy on that recording (although it's possible that I didn't notice every note he plays) plays as low as low EB which is Db in concert pitch. I don't think he ever gets to low D (C concert) on that album. The only place I've heard him play a low D is on a CD with Oliver Nelson (forgot the name sory).
I have a low C bass, and it has a hole in the bell, which is open even when playing a low C. I can close it with my foot, and get a B. It's a very sharp B though. I'm guessing around 5th or 6th of a tone above B. I don't think there is a point using that low B. Since it is so much out of tune, you can't use it in tonal music where tuning is important usually. When just improvising even if it's atonal music, there isn't really a point to use it and not low C, they give basically the same effect.
If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to help.
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Author: CJB
Date: 2005-02-25 16:41
I was going to suggest looking at the Yamaha low C bass. I've had mine for almost 2 years now. Whilst I felt that both the Selmer and Buffet are better instruments at the level I play and for the amount I would use it, I really couldn't justify the additional expense (then £1k for the Buffet, £2k for the Selmer). I've been really pleased with it, and have used it far more than I anticipated.
Having said that assuming I've got the conversion right $8k does sound more like the list price than the store price (discounted cost in the UK is about £3.2k, list price about £4.8k)
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-02-25 16:41
AFAIK, Dolphy played on a good ol' Selmer Model 33 - which only goes to low Eb. The Low C basses really didn't become common until the mid-70's, and weren't really accepted until the mid 80's.
Besides, a low C bass is not really something you can stand and play. Its badly off balance where the neck strap would attach. A low Eb bass is no problem with a neck strap and is well balanced around the right hand.
If you're thinking jazz, the Yamaha basses are the wrong direction to go anyway - they're a more narrow bore and are designed to sound more like a Bb clarient - with a tight contained tone (same with the LeBlancs). Steer towards the the Buffets or the ubiquitous Selmers - they have a broader tone with more harmonics and can really growl when you need them too. A used model 33, which is a solid horn, generally sells for ~$1500 here in the US.
While a contra has a unique sound and can be really cool, its an extremely specalized instrument and is a later purchase IMO. A bass clarient will cover the entire range of the Bari and Tenor sax even if it just goes to Eb (OK, - a half step on the Bari) - so you won't find yourself too limited with the 3.5 octaves of a normal bass.
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-26 04:22
It's appearing more and more like I better make my purchase in the US when I go back. The Selmer catalogue I got lists the C bass higher than the Yamaha (940,000\). I still haven't looked into used ones yet, since my Japanese reading ability is pretty limited. My wife will help me there.
Already I think I've decided against the contra alto for now, unless I happen across an irresistable deal. I was thinking it would be neat to be able to play walking bass lines with it, but I suppose I can do that with the bass to an extent.
Still, can anyone tell me what the range is for the contra-alto? It must be either a 4th or a 5th lower than the bass, right? If it only goes down to concert Ab, that's just one note below the low C bass. Hardly worth it, I'd say.
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Author: JHMurray
Date: 2005-02-26 04:29
Interesting about the extra hole in the bell, Clarnibass.
Do they all have that?
Maybe someone can invent some kind of extended bell with foot keys.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-26 05:55
About your contra-alto question, it depends which one. The Selmer for example is a low Eb (I think it's a low Eb eventhough the WW&BW list it as low E), which is F# concert. It's actually a major third lower than a low C bass, but a fifth lower than a low Eb bass. The price is more than $9,000 though.
Buffet has a low C contra-alto, which is low Eb in concert pitch. That would be a fifth lower than the low C bass. The price around $10,000.
Buying them in the USA sounds like a good idea, but I think those prices you have for Selmer and Yamaha basses are the list prices, instead of the actual price. If those prices are from the catalogues, then it's almost sure they are list prices. I suggest you call the store and ask about the prices for those instruments.
In the WW&BW store the Yamaha is listed just under $9,000, but the actual price is a little over $6,000. Maybe in Japan the Yamahas are cheaper than in the USA.
I read that Walter Grabner made a low B extension to his bass clarinet, and that by closing the bell hole with his foot he could play a low Bb (Ab concert!). He said the bass got rediculously long and very difficult to handle.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-02-26 16:40
Many if not most women play a low C bass w/o a peg. (What is it about the Bass Clarinet that it seems to attract all of these short women?) Any more length and it would take someone unusually tall to play it.
Before you leave Japan, though, go ahead and at least try some out at a local retailer. Take your wife along, but you just want the chance to play them side by side. Whereas the Bb clarinet community (at least in the US) lived for many years under a consensus of what a clarinet should sound like and now is emerging from that consensus, no consensus was ever reached on what a Bass should sound like. There are some pretty divergent design philosophies - some more condusive to jazz than others - get a feel for them.
Honestly, I'd figure out what a good price in the US is (you can ask here) and then give the vendor in Japan a chance to match or better it with the hope of developing a relationship. You're going to need someone you trust to service the horn - they can be cantankerous beasts with their long key runs. Most of us who play a bass clarinet have to tinker with them a bit - not as much as an oboe or bassoon, but a fair amount.
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