 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-13 11:30
I have a clarinet that was given to me many many years ago that I am after some info on please.
It is made of WOOD not plastic
I think it might be French (by the brand)
The markings on it are as follows
Barrel: 4 32
Upper joint: COUESNON PARIS
Lower Joint:
Bell: UNIVERSELLE
EXPOSITION DE PARIS
1901
HORS CONCOURS
MEMBRE DU JURY
COUESNON
O O
Oc
A PARIS
The keys are not the same as a modern clarinet,
The top joint has three finger holes and a total of 8 levers
The lower joint has 3 finger holes in different positions to the modern ones and has 5 levers.
Can you shed any light on what instrument this is?
Thanks
Tony Balm
balm@pipeline.com.au
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-02-13 14:23
If you go "Go To Top", select the "Seearch" link, and search for "Cousenon" you'll find some references.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-13 19:20
You have a quite old Cousenon-made clarinet. From your info it sounds like an "Albert" system [of keywork and tone hole location]. If you will count up the no. of rings on each joint we can be more sure. It was customary back in the early 1900's to "brag" about the honors, so my guess would be about 1910! Don
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-13 23:05
Don, I know zilch about these things. I'm using a Clarinet method book for beginers to describe the parts.
What do you mean by "count the rings on each joint"?
I'll try to explain as best as I can. Perhaps I could make a sketch and e-mail it to you.
The BARREL has three silver rings (concave, convex, concave) at the top and the same again at the bottom end
The UPPER joint has no rings at the joint ends,
The LOWER joint has three silver rings (concave, convex, concave)at the top end of the joint & none at the bottom,
The BELL has three silver rings (concave, convex, concave) at the top end and one Big silver ring at the bottom end.
With regard to the rings, I can't tell if they are three narrow rings or one wide ring moulded with the concave, convex, concave rings. They rings are ? stuck tighly on the jiont ends.
The top joint has a total of eleven holes in it.
Two have finger rings around them, two have nothing around them and the remaining ones have keys that cover them. With regard to the keys, at the bottom end there is a cluster of three keys as opposed to the four on a modern clarinet. starting from the front & bottom of the top joint there is the following:
a lever goes around to the back to cover a hole just above the joint, an open hole, a lever that goes around to the side to cover a hole, a hole with a finger ring, a hole covered by a pad that is joined on the next finger ring (this pad closes the hole regardles of which finger ring is depressed.) a hole with a finger ring that has a pad connected to it that covers the hole between the two finger rings, a lever slightly off center that covers a hole on the opposite side that is off centre, a lever that covers a hole a little higher up. There is a hole covered by a lever that is operated by the thumb at the back and below this lever at the back is a bare hole. The cluster of three levers at the bottom end operate over some holes to the rear side at various positions up the joint.
The bottom joint has ten holes in it, the top one is bare and the two below it have finger rings, there are five levers , two grouped at the top end of the joint, two grouped at the bottom end and one on its own between the finger rings. The finger rings operate a pad that closes a hole above the top finger ring and below the open hole at the top end.
I hope this is not too confusing for you (I am confused)
Thanks for the help
Tony Balm
balm@pipeline.com.au
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2000-02-14 07:25
Hello,
your description would match to an albert system clarinet with 2 rings (index and middle finger) at the upper joint, 3 trill keys and B/C# (E/F#) patent trill mechanism if the total count of holes in the upper joint is 13 (and not 11).
Rollers between (effectively at the borders) of the 4 keys of the lower joint which are positioned to pairs? Do the gaps between the upper pair of keys of the lower joint together with the most lower key of the upper joint form a T (is the gap between this pair of keys parallel to the axis of the lower joint - otherwise usually diagonal with almost 45 degree?) so there is a way to slide with your left hand little finger from each of the 3 keys to each other? If both, you could also call this clarinet a '16 key german system' clarinet.
Arnold, the basset hornist
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-14 09:40
Yes there are 13 holes in the top,
With regard to the lower section keys you are talking about, the pair on the left side are offset at about 45 degrees to the joint. I dont see anything that looks like a T with the lower keys, but I could be wrong. the picture will explian I hope.
In total there are 13 keys and four finger rings. (14 keys if you count a cap that is joined onto the top finger ring)
I have scanned my clarinet, if you click on the URL below it will point you to the picture.
I hope it will assist in identifying it -
www.pipeline.com.au/users/balm/1clarinet.jpg
If the quality is not good enough, there is also a high resoloution picture available at -
www.pipeline.com.au/users/balm/clarinet.jpg
Tony Balm
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Author: Gary
Date: 2000-02-14 14:54
It looks like an Albert system clarinet in the photo. Looks like it is in pretty good condition too.
There is a fingering chart for the Albert system in the Rubank Beginning clarinet method if that is available where you live. It is on the back of the other fingering chart.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-14 15:42
Hi Tony, saw your messages last nite, but AOL is crowded then, however you have info from 2 [at least] of our experts, with which I agree. I have a nearly identical cl, maker Pourcelle, Paris, FR, Imported US by CB&S [NY or Boston?]. With the rollers, "sliver" key spring construction, interaction between one of the [low/high] F/C pads [RH] and the long left-hand E/B key, I offer my guess as a late 1800's - early 1900's French-American style Albert, possibly their most-advanced, [prior to my Pupeschi-Conn "repairman's nightmare" ] . Your 1clarinet pic is very good, much better than most, congrats. I have several more A's and will look at them more closely, as to makers. Sure is interesting!, right. Happy to help. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-14 16:33
On careful inspection, I found LP [low pitch] B [Bb] on the Pour. upper joint, and also found a Kohlert-Graslitz [CZ-Poland-eastern Germany] again nearly identical, prob. also a US import! Don
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-15 08:09
Don
Thanks for the reply.
You are right, as much as I cant play the stick (I can play a sax a little)
I am sure intrigued about this one. It's history is fascinating. I have
wasted a couple of days on the net searching for information as well as
travelling many kilometres to supposed experts to try and get information
about it only to see the experts look at it and tell me they have never seen
one.
The picture was a straight scan on a desk top scanner - no photos.
Thanks for the info & I look forward to any other info you may be able to
offer.
Tony
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-02-15 13:32
Tony wrote:
-------------------------------
...I have
wasted a couple of days on the net searching for information as well as
travelling many kilometres to supposed experts to try and get information
about it only to see the experts look at it and tell me they have never seen
one.
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Then they were not truly experts. Any book on the history of the clarinet will have pictures showing the evolution of the instrument and the different key systems that have been used.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-15 13:57
You are right, Dee. You are certainly welcome, Tony, a goodly number of us enjoy the "hunt for info" about our favorite inst! If you search the Phorum as Mark suggests for info re: Cousenon, some should show up. I recall an associated maker's name and will try to run it down. Happy antiquing!! Don
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-16 07:21
I suspect you're right about the expert status of the experts. All but one has been able to ofer some information on the fingering / key system. They all know about the Boehm system & thats it. One even quiped a rude remark about me using the internet to search for info so I asked him what he knew about my stick -as expected - nothing. So I put to him that at least via this medium I am learning about my stick and heaps on the history behind the clarinet in general.
I am amazed how much info is out here in Net land and how generously you all provide it to a total stranger. For this I am very very grateful and hope that one day I can repay the favour to some one else.
I am throughly enjoying the search for info on my stick, the more I find out, the more facinated I get whit where is has played - towns, pubs, clubs etc. To think that it dates back to around 1880 - 1900 is just amazing. If only it could speak (words as opposed to music)I bet it could tell a story or two.
Thanks again for the help
Tony
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-16 15:07
Tony - By now I'm sure you know of "our good books" on the clar, by Brymer, Pino, Lawson, Baines, Stein and more, most available easily from Amazon, Barnes & Noble etc. The Groves Dictionary of Music etc should be available, at least in medium sized libraries, and also has lots on cl history. Older cl's like ours are in continuous use in smaller groups, the New Orleans [and elsewhere] Dixielanders being an outstanding example, I worked-up one of mine for a N O cat, who I guess found one in a pawn shop!! Happy tooting! Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-02-16 15:30
Don Berger wrote:
-------------------------------
Tony - By now I'm sure you know of "our good books" on the clar, by Brymer, Pino, Lawson, Baines, Stein and more, most available easily from Amazon, Barnes & Noble etc.
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Please remember to check Gary Van Cott's site first for these books: http://www.vcisinc.com . Gary's a sponsor and specializes in clarinet books.
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Author: Tony
Date: 2000-02-20 13:27
I took my clarinet in to three woodwind specialists in Melbourne to find out some info about it and to see what it would cost to fix it.
KEY SYSTEM
One store knew the fingering was similar to the Albert but could not be any more specific, the other two didn't know except that it was not the Boehm system.
TO REPAIR
One store wanted $350.00 Aus $ to repad and re cork it, another wanted $240.00 and the other was not interested.
TO SELL
One store reckoned it would be worth about $350.00 repaired, another had a similar clarinet with the Albert system and was asking $875.00.
WHAT DID I DO
I copied the notes from the net on repadding and re corking, read them up, measured up all my moth eaten pads, went out and purchased a set for $36.00 Aus $). I spent about 6 - 8 hours stripping the clarinet, cleaning out the
old glue and fitting and adjusting the new pads. I made up a light to check for leaks, and after all the work the unit is relatively air tight - you can apply suction and it holds, it even gives a POP when you release your finger
from the end. When I apply pressure, one key leaks a tiny bit but stops if you apply a little pressure to assist the tired old spring. I don't figure that in its normal use it will have to withstand that much pressure any way.
I have been playing it now for a week and have not has so much pleasure from a stick of wood in all my life. I guess the fact that I did all the work and it now sings a nice mellow tune makes it just that bit more special.
My daughter brought home a clarinet from school and we have been doing some duet work and my clarinet sounds every bis as good as the new one - maybe a little smoother in some parts and a little different in others. Mind you I'm
still trying to work out the fingering for all the notes.
Anyway, I would like to thank all of you wonderful people out there who have given me ( a total stranger to you) so much help in trying to identify my clarinet and this great web site for all the info that has enabled my clarinet to sing again.
My ultimate goal now is to try and find out just how old it is. I've been told (via the Net) that it dates back to around 1880 to 1910.
Thank you all heaps
Tony Balm
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-02-20 14:32
According to the inscription, this model was recognized at an exposition in Paris in 1901. So your particular instrument would be no earlier than 1901 even though the model would have existed before that time.
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