 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Sarah
Date: 2005-02-20 02:58
Does anyone know if bass clarinet or contra bass clarinet is used in Double Trouble from Harry Potter 3?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 02:55
Hello,
I'm actually attemtping to transcribe Double Trouble.
Do you the instrumentation for it?
Also, it would be much easier to have the original score ... I don't know how much I would have to go through to get a copy of the parts ...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: diz
Date: 2005-02-21 03:06
Jeffrey - you've obviously sought permission from the publishers?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 05:08
Also, since it isn't published ... there is no publisher.
"Unpublished".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-02-21 05:19
But it still is copyrighted. You MUST have permission to transcribe something. It really doesn't have anything to do with whether it is published, as much as it has to do with whether it is copyrighted.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 13:39
"You MUST have permission to transcribe something."
you do? I was planning on transcribing some old Benny Goodman music for a senior project (and for fun). How is this infringing copyright laws?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 14:04
music_is_life wrote:
> "You MUST have permission to transcribe something."
>
> you do?
Yes.
> I was planning on transcribing some old Benny Goodman
> music for a senior project (and for fun).
Because you don't own the music; someone else (very possibly not Benny Goodman's estate but the composer) does and retains the rights to it and to transcriptions/transpositions.
> How is this
> infringing copyright laws?
Because it's part of the copyright laws.
Doing a short excerpt for a school project most probablyu falls within the "fair use" clause.
It's one of those things most often honored in the breach ... but it's still not right ... and is carefully monitored in most colleges. If you check in something like "The Clarinet" (the magazine of the ICA) you'll see that most excerpts are reprinted "by kind permission of", even though the fair use clause makes that probably unnecessary in the US - but since the magazine is sent out internationally it might be there just to cover the bases - not many countries have a "fair use" clause.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-02-21 14:15
Isn't there a provision for copying for "educational purposes" which do not include public performance or profit? For examle, transcribing jazz solos for practice? In that case, you're not avoiding purchase.
It is true that Double Trouble is not available in any form other than sheet music. I had looked into this for my chorus at school, and learned what you have learned. Anything else would require permission.
Sue
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 14:24
yea... I know that it says on the original music that my director purchases for the band that you're not supposed to copy it, but then what are all the photocopies doing on (about) 50 people's stands? I am quite sure my director is not breaking any copyright laws, since every band I have been in for the past 8 years has given me photocopied music for EVERY piece.
so there has to be some kind of loophole. I really don't see how anyone could possibly have a problem with my transcribing BG music, since I'm not going to record it and sell it and I'm not charging my class to watch me perform it. I am also not planning on selling or even mass-producing my transcription.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 14:37
music_is_life wrote:
> yea... I know that it says on the original music that my
> director purchases for the band that you're not supposed to
> copy it, but then what are all the photocopies doing on (about)
> 50 people's stands? I am quite sure my director is not breaking
> any copyright laws, since every band I have been in for the
> past 8 years has given me photocopied music for EVERY piece.
I am QUITE sure they are breaking the law; however, as I noted (and we have had these issues come up very recently) copyright is honored most often the the breach.
> I really don't see
> how anyone could possibly have a problem with my transcribing
> BG music, since I'm not going to record it and sell it and I'm
> not charging my class to watch me perform it. I am also not
> planning on selling or even mass-producing my transcription.
It doesn't matter - it's not yours to do with as you please. It is the Intellectual Property of another.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-02-21 14:39
Photocopies are fine to play from as long as you own the original music. Frequently in school bands the original parts get trashed by players who don't take care of their music, so directors make copies for people to play from and keep the originals in their library.
In the case of transcriptions, you MUST get permission. There's no ifs, ands or buts about this. Imagine being a published composer who depends on sales of music for their livelihood, then someone comes along and starts copying everything. Would you make much money after that?
Another analogy is... you show up for a paying gig and then the contractor comes up to you after the concert and says, "well, we don't think you need to be paid for this gig". Is this acceptable?? NO!!!!!!
Follow the laws, they're there to protect all of us, player and composer alike. Too bad most people don't think about this until it affects them personally.
--Michael
P.S. John Williams is STILL LIVING and makes his living from his music!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 15:22
This IS for a school project ... and we're NOT getting paid for it.
Post Edited (2005-02-21 15:29)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 15:34
Jeffrey wrote:
> This IS for a school project ... and we're NOT getting paid for
> it.
Doesn't matter. You must get permission before doing anything with it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 15:35
how does one get permission?
does it cost anything?
-Lindsie
Post Edited (2005-02-21 15:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 15:35
If John Williams really wanted to get paid, he would publish his music so people don't have to transcribe it themselves ... and make MIDI files to let other people extract them from.
I really think that stealing music only comes from profit. I'm not making any profit, and I would actually buy a set of published parts if there was one but there isn't.
If I already bought the recording, then transcribing it for educational purposes is like a harder and longer way of photocopying it for educational purposes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 15:37
music_is_life wrote:
> how does one get permission?
By writing to the copyright holder and requesting permission in writing.
> does it cost anything?
Depends on the copyright holder. They're free to do what they wish with their property.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 15:39
Jeffrey- I think that's partially right. Like- it's not illegal to stick a tape in the tape deck and hit record while listening to the radio...
The computer technician at my school told me that it's not illegal to burn a CD if you are not mass producing or selling it.
And my band director told me that as long as you purchase the music, it's not illegal to copy it for a band, since they don't give you 3 first clarinet parts, 5 seconds....etc. it makes sense to me!
however, doesn't john williams publish his music? I have played Harry Potter in band and (I hope I'm right on this) Jurrasic Park. And a few others- so what's this about him not publishing music?!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 15:40
Jeffrey wrote:
> If John Williams really wanted to get paid, he would publish
> his music so people don't have to transcribe it themselves ...
> and make MIDI files to let other people extract them from.
Of course the MIDIs are illegal copies themselves.
> I really think that stealing music only comes from profit. I'm
> not making any profit, and I would actually buy a set of
> published parts if there was one but there isn't.
Theft with no profit is theft.
> If I already bought the recording, then transcribing it for
> educational purposes is like a harder and longer way of
> photocopying it for educational purposes.
And just as illegal.
Please, we've been down this road so many times. When you're a composer you can do what you want with your property, from giving it away for free to taking everyone to court who whistles it. But as a consumer you're bound by the composer's wishes for quite a long time, whether or not you like it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 15:43
music_is_life wrote:
> The computer technician at my school told me that it's not
> illegal to burn a CD if you are not mass producing or selling
> it.
He's likely to visit a judge someday and explain his ignorance of the law.
> And my band director told me that as long as you purchase the
> music, it's not illegal to copy it for a band, since they don't
> give you 3 first clarinet parts, 5 seconds....etc. it makes
> sense to me!
It's illegal as hell. You buy a copy per person. Your band director either has permission from the publisher to copy the parts or is breaking the law. It's that simple. End of this discussion.
> however, doesn't john williams publish his music? I have played
> Harry Potter in band and (I hope I'm right on this) Jurrasic
> Park. And a few others- so what's this about him not publishing
> music?!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 16:25
sorry, but I'm not giving up that easily!
http://www.iaje.org/article.asp?ArticleID=145
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 16:34
music_is_life wrote:
> sorry, but I'm not giving up that easily!
To which paragraph concerning US copyright law in this opinion are you referring? (also, remember everything you read here is not legal advice)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 16:39
1) I'm not getting paid for this
2) jazz musicians transcribe solos all the time for educational purposes without asking permission, this is no different for classical music
3) we can all justify our position on this
This can go on and on, so please stop the illegal debate.
So far, by listening, I have picked up on the following instrumentation:
children's choir
2 recorders
contrabass clarinet
harp
cello
bass
harpsichord
triangle
tambourine
tenor drum
bass drum
Am I missing anything?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 16:45
Jeffrey wrote:
> 1) I'm not getting paid for this
Irrelevant, actually.
> 2) jazz musicians transcribe solos all the time for educational
> purposes without asking permission, this is no different for
> classical music
Educational purposes are just fine, performance is not. Classical music by definition is not copyrighted (much contemporary is, though).
> 3) we can all justify our position on this
I'm sure, though many people rationalize.
> This can go on and on, so please stop the illegal debate.
Well, Jeffrey, you are doing something illegal, and I'll not have it helped here on a public BBoard.
Thank you,
Mark C.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 16:51
A few quotes:
"The nature of the source work. For example, it's difficult to establish fair dealing with an unpublished work, since the author would seem to have an interest in keeping it under wraps."
"Whether the source work was available within a reasonable time, at an ordinary commercial price. It's more difficult to complain about unauthorized use if the copyright owner's distribution or permission practices are unfair or inefficient, such as where there is no ready market or means to pay for the desired use."
"it's fair to tape an entire musical work or broadcast to allow the user to decide what to extract from it to use - provided that the subsequent use of the extract turns out to be fair."
AND ESPECIALLY THIS ONE:
"Also, the fairness of the dealing may depend on its purpose and medium. An extract may be too long to be fair if copied for criticism or review but may still be fair if copied for research or private study."
THIS WORKS FOR MY RESEARCH AT LEAST...:
"Finally, the purpose of the dealing needn't be directly related to the source work. For example, I may review Miles Davis' recording of Round Midnight by playing excerpts both of that recording and of Thelonious Monk's original so long as the dealing is otherwise fair and the source is attributed."
"Educational uses have their own specific exceptions and are not automatically considered fair dealing, but they can also be fair dealing if they meet all of the criteria just discussed. Recently, Canada introduced additional exceptions for educational institutions and for non-profit libraries, archives, and museums. These exceptions haven't yet received much judicial attention, so it's hard to say how they will be interpreted. What is certain is that these educational exceptions are very limited:"
"An educational institution may, for purposes of education or training and on the premises of an educational institution, make a manual reproduction of a work for display or project a copy of a work on an overhead projector or similar device."
"Live performance of a work or sound recording, on the premises of an educational institution, is permissible if for educational purposes, not for profit, and for an audience consisting primarily of students and/or faculty."
"A nonprofit, educational, or personal use would more likely be a fair use than a commercial use."
Copyright in the International Classroom and Marketplace
Alan S. Bergman Legal Issues in Jazz
July 2003
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 17:00
You don't know why I'm transcribing it, so you don't know if what I'm doing is really illegal.
You just said educational purposes are just fine, and that classical music is not copyrighted.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 17:03
Which, if you read almost every one of your quotes, is applicable to section 107 of the copyright law, which allows excerpts in the US for study. Not complete works, and not for performance. Copiues of a work are not allowed for performance - not even under fair use.
The MPA guidelines were added into the congressional record and can be of probitive use, though they aren't law but guidelines: see the MPA site for a listing of those guidelines (http://www.mpa.org/copyright/copyresc.html).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 17:10
you know what- I don't know everything, but seriously, if all this is correct, and followed by lawyers, then every band director that I know (and let me tell you, I know A LOT), would be jailed! Like I said, every single band and orchestra I have been in, in the past EIGHT years (granted, not a lot to some people, but that means a lot of photocopied music), have photocopied at least 5 different pieces per concert for EVERY instrument! I mean, come on! Almost everyone I know, personally would be in a court room for either notating music on sibelius, burning CDs for a friend or 2 (or themself), downloading music, listening to midi files... the list goes on and on!
I would be in court for playing Benny Goodman music, becuase you're making it sound like THAT's illegal!
Let me just say that all I'm doing is transcribing ONE piece of big band/swing, from ONE concert back in the 30s- JUST the clarinet part, unless I feel so inclined to transcribe the whole band, which might happen, but isn't likely... I am playing it for a CLASS of STUDENTS and 2 teachers. I am not charging anything. recording myself in any fashion, or mass producing/ selling the transcription. Nor am I burning any BG CDs!
This is insane and I think that the site I provided is ample info in my defense, at least.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 17:17
interesting: "though they aren't law but guidelines"
and thus cannot be inforced by a law-inforcement officer
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 17:26
Aside from illegal things ...
I am still curious to the original instrumentation of Double Trouble.
Does anyone know?
Post Edited (2005-02-21 17:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 17:33
>"Um, you're contradicing yourself ...
You're telling me that what I'm doing is illegal ... but now you're basically saying that everything is okay ..."
when did I say what you're doing is illegal? even if it is I don't give a ****, do whatever you want. I think this is bogus.
>"Please stop posting.
It's wasting space."
It's a public thread and I may post if I would like. You did not start this thread nor do you have any right to tell me to post or not to post.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-21 18:03
There are pieces of John Williams which aren't published, but are still owned and certainly copywritten.
I produced William's Clarinet Concerto for Michele Zukovsky.
He wrote it for her and she completely owns the work, but we still asked Williams for his permission to sell the recordings, stream, etc before doing any of that. His exact words were "go make money with it!"
You need to get permission, it's what you have to do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 18:21
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> You need to get permission, it's what you have to do.
Which is exactly right. It's not so hard to go and ask permission, telling the copyright holder exactly what you want to do. If what you're doing is 100% innocuous, there's no reason they would refuse.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-02-21 19:01
So how would one go about asking permission?
Also, if I were to ask for permission, would it be the same way as asking to perform the piece with original part copies, without any profit?
Transcribing is really hard when you hear atleast 10 instruments at once.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-21 19:19
Contact BMI as that is what his companies work with. Williams does his business under a couple of publishing company names, but BMI is the master holder. You most likely won't get permission from Williams directly so don't even bother to try.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-02-21 19:27
Jeffrey wrote:
> So how would one go about asking permission?
Contact his normal publishing house or his agent. A bit of research on Google will probably be enough.
> Also, if I were to ask for permission, would it be the same way
> as asking to perform the piece with original part copies,
> without any profit?
I would ask using all the particulars of my case. If your case falls in one of the ones listed at http://www.mpa.org/content/copyright-resource-center, use the forms provided there.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-21 19:33
Hey, remember this one:
When you are asking permission you are also protecting your own interests too.
Say if somebody heard your arrangement, stole it, and made massive $$$$$ on it.
You never know............
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-02-21 20:03
I think what needs to be explained to Jeffrey is that, when someone writes a piece of music, for example, the soundtrack to the movie in question, it exists as an entity which is owned by the composer. Certainly, you have performed with your band "arrangements" of other music, probably the theme from the original Harry Potter film. Those "arrangers" contacted the ORIGINAL publisher of the music to request permission to arrange it. Then, those arrangements became copyrighted as well.
Making CD copies of music is illegal. The existence of those MIDI files you are downloading are illegal as well. Everyone who does it is breaking the law.
My understanding of the band music thing is that, as long as you have the exact number of original parts backing up your copies, you are okay. However, if the band music comes with five trumpet parts and you made five copies because you have ten trumpets, then you are breaking the law.
At some point, you will realize that these laws protect you as a musician.
Sue
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SGTClarinet_7
Date: 2005-02-22 14:20
David,
Shoot me an e-mail offline if you would please. I have a question about the Williams Concerto. Thanks!
Matthew
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2005-02-22 20:52
Jeffery,
you may be in luck, though you may merely have to wait. Looking on Williams' site, it shows that the orchestral score and parts are available for earlier Harry Potter scores:
http://www.johnwilliams.org/news/publications.html#sheetmusic
I would think that the release of "Azkban" would be immenent.
-JfW
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jeffrey
Date: 2005-03-04 05:16
Also ...
There are already publications of "Double Trouble" available.
To simply expand upon a currently published arrangement shouldn't be anything illegal, since this is done all the time.
You don't need special permission to perform published works, otherwise everyone is doing something illegal. This makes no sense.
I think some people owe me an apology for giving me such a hard time.
I'm so done with this.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-03-04 10:47
Everyone else was done with this, too, Jeffrey. You are free to utililze the pubished arrangements. It is against the law to make your own arrangement without permission of the publisher. It doesn't matter that other people break the law all the time. What kind of an excuse is that?
If you're planning to do what you want anyway, why do you invoke our responses?
Sue
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarispark
Date: 2005-03-04 13:42
Perhaps some people owe you apologies, but you also owe apologies to some people. You shouldn't take offense to not liking what people tell you. YOU CAN'T MAKE YOUR OWN ARRANGEMENT WITHOUT PERMISSION...like everyone else said. It says so on the bottom of most music I've played in band.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-03-04 16:17
Can we please end this? I remember responding like a week ago or whenever this started. If you want to read about copyright issues there's PLENTY of threads in the archives. We don't need another. End. Stop. Catch my drift?! :^)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-04 16:19
clarinetist04 wrote:
> Can we please end this? I remember responding like a week ago
> or whenever this started. If you want to read about copyright
> issues there's PLENTY of threads in the archives. We don't
> need another. End. Stop. Catch my drift?! :^)
or just read the bottom of the music... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
