 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 14:10
What is there to know about embrouchure? I'm having problems with "muscle fatigue" around the mouth after playing for a short time. True that I have just started playing the clarinet and have to strenghthen those muscles around the mouth. I take rests often while practicing but as time goes by the "muscle fatigue" gets worse to a point that I have to stop playing. I have tried to relax the embrouchure but that makes the air escape around the mouthpiece. Let me hear from the experts. Carlos
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 14:26
well- you kinda hit the nail on the head when you said "True that I have just started playing the clarinet and have to strenghthen those muscles around the mouth."
that's exactly what must happen. Just make sure your mouth is in the correct position. How is your embrochure? (besides being painful?)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-02-21 14:36
Make sure the mouthpiece and reed are suitable for you. A resistant combination can frustrate a newbie. A teacher can determine that.
Look in the mirror ....front and side...while playing long tones. Does it look right? Again, dont go it alone.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 14:41
Good Morning MIL. Thank you for your advice. I guess that "practice makes perfect" so I will keep practicing and hoping that the muscles get use to the embrouchre. I have no idea of how my embrouchure is. I have followed the suggestions that I have read in several books and in the instruction book that I'm using and even looked in the mirror to see if it mimics the suggestions and it looks fine to me. I find it very frustrating. Just when I'm starting to get in the groove the mouth gives up. By the way I went back to the mouthpice that came with the E-11. I think that it is easier to play than the B-45 that I was using. Would it be that the clarinet manufacturers try to match the mouthpiece to the clarinet? Do more expensive clarinet (for professional use) come with mouthpieces? Carlos
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-21 15:00
Sea,
In most people's opinions, the mouthpieces that come with clarinets stink. Very few manufacturers (and very few models WITHIN that manufacterur) will give you a pro quality mouthpiece with the clarinet. Leblanc will give out a K10 or Eddie Daniels mouthpiece (depending on model of clarinet), some selmers might give you an HS* or something along those lines. Also, some DEALERS will offer a better mouthpiece than what comes stock (for instance buying a clarinet from Tom Ridenour will often include one of his mouthpieces, etc)
However it seems to be in most cases that the manufacturer's throw in a generic mouthpiece just to make it seem "complete". And that most of the time, the player buying the instrument either has a better mouthpiece which they intend to use anyway, or they use the stock setup and don't realize how much their playing can be improved with a better mouthpiece.
Very RARELY does the stock mouthpiece end up being superb (there ARE people out there who will play VERY WELL on a Buffet Crown mouthpiece or some other typically "junk" piece)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 15:03
well it's kind of like your hand muscles too- when I first started playing, I had the hardest time because my right hand would cramp up and ache so badly! but there was nothing I could do. just play through it. When you feel your muscles weakening, push them. But not TOO much, because you can hurt yourself. It's kind of like when you first start excercising in a weight room- they tell you not to go all out and lift the heaviest weights, because you'll hurt your muscles. start slowly and start practicing for longer increments of time. this should help.
If you have a pro MP, then it might be harder to use and might be trying on your muscles because you have to use more air support and sometime blow harder to get notes out. and for a beginner that is hard. The MP that comes with the clar. is usually pretty bad, so don't lose your B-45! But for now, for learning purposes, use the bad MP. It works and you can still sound good on it and produce decent sound, but once your muslces get stronger, go back to the B-45.
good luck
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-21 15:14
sfalexi said:
> In most people's opinions, the mouthpieces
> that come with clarinets stink
The Forté clarinet comes with an excellent mouthpiece - the Gennusa GE*S. ...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-21 15:25
music_is_life said:
> The MP that comes with the clar. is usually
> pretty bad, so don't lose your B-45!
We've been down this road SO MANY times...
The B45 is a TERRIBLE beginner's mouthpiece. With a tip opening of 119.5, it is far too resistant for those just starting to play. Many beginners get frustrated by using this mouthpiece and have had negative experiences with learning the clarinet solely because of it.
Why band directors and teachers continually recommend it as a beginners mouthpiece is a mystery.
As we have said NUMEROUS times before, the Fobes Debut, Hite Premiere, Yamaha 4C and even the Gennusa GE*S (cited above) are all reed friendly, low resistant mouthpieces suited for students...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 15:30
I'm sorry- I believe I said: "but once your muslces get stronger, go back to the B-45." - I am not saying he should stick with it now, as a newbie, I'm saying when his muscles get stronger!
btw- the hite is a student MP? hm... I wonder, is 8 years enough to retire from a Hite and move onto "bigger and better things"? if so, what do you recommend?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-21 15:44
I was going to point out that one GBK, but I was hoping!!! that the 'most' would have covered that situation!!! ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-21 15:57
I knew you were aware of the Gennusa mouthpiece being included with the Forté clarinet, but others may not have been ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-02-21 16:17
More confusion (or misunderstanding) on my part...
GBK (above) notes that the "B45" (Vandoren, right?) is a bad choice for a beginner because of "resistance"?
What determines "resistance?". The tip opening? The smaller, the more resistant?
He also notes that the tip opening measures at 119.5 (mm, I presume) which I compute is equivalent to 47 hundredths of an inch (2.54 cm per inch)
On the Mouthpiece Chart Dan found in another posting, the Vandorn B45 comes in at 44 hundredths of an inch, an appreciable difference, I suppose. Is the chart (or, perish the thought!) GBK wrong or is 3 milli-inches within the usual measurement error.
On that chart 47 milli-inches is just about in the middle, not an extremely closed (or open) mouthpiece.
The Gennusa GE*S (stock with the Forte) isn't listed on the chart, at least by that model number. What is its tip opening?
Or have I made so many errors and bad assumptions here that it is hopeless to try to correct me?
JDS
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-21 16:38
Attachment: Vandoren mouthpiece specs.JPG (384k)
John:
Although no two B45's are the same the tip opening is approximately 119.5mm.
See the attached mouthpiece spec chart by Vandoren.
The Gennusa GE*S (included with the Forté clarinet) has a tip opening of 1.02 - 1.06 ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-21 16:49
Resistance is subjective, but honestly, there could be a NUMBER of factors that contribute to it, regardless of what tip opening it has. Sometimes, people may also confuse resistance with stuffiness of a mouthpiece.
For instance, I have a close-tip mouthpiece that plays with very little resistance. And I have tried mouthpieces of the approximate same facing with much more resistance. Another term for "resistance" that I think might equate here would be "backpressure". As in you feel that while you're blowing, there is almost a force stopping or pushing back against you.
The problem with B45s is that they are SO mass produced, that there are a lot of variations from one mouthpiece to another. I remember some post somewhere of someone that had a bunch of them around, measured the tips, and found a VERY big difference in openings on what were ALL supposed to be B45s of equal tip opening (I seem to remember almost 6 hundreths from the smallest to the largest opening). Variation is true of all mouthpieces, however the B45 tends to (in my mind from what I've read on it and other mouthpieces) stick out as the DEFINITIVE example of a lack of quality control in the manufacturing process.
To learn more about the Gennusa mouthpieces, look to our "Mouthpiece/Barrel" section of our sponsors (on the right of your web browser) and look at "Redwine Jazz". They manufacture the Genussa MPCs.
And regardless of how many errors/assumptions you may or may not have made, I always think that it's better to ask than to CONTINUE making bad assumptions. Hopefully someone will steer you on the correct path and you'll remember what assumptions to make for next time (or be able to help direct another person on the right course).
As for that, I hope I didn't steer you wrong! But just wait until someone more reputable either corrects me, or agrees with me before you take my thoughts as truth.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-02-21 17:26
I used the "resistance" word. Mea culpa. Perhaps I should have said ...a mouthpiece that is - or is not -friendly to beginners.
By the way, the OLDER Buffet crown mouthpieces of rubber were excellent.* The plastic buffet mpx that come with even the best instruments are junque.
*yes I know their ched. origins, but let us not confuse this new player with the lore and mystique of legendary and costly items.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-21 17:43
Quote:
*yes I know their ched. origins, but let us not confuse this new player with the lore and mystique of legendary and costly items. Boy oh boy was I confused when I first came to this board. Now I've learned enough terminology to disguise it fairly well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-02-21 18:27
lex...I second that......that is one of the benefits of this board.
Count that as a pitch on my part for donations to it for those who have not yet helped fill the pot.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2005-02-21 20:53
Jack said:
"What determines "resistance?". The tip opening? The smaller, the more resistant?"
Jack and Sea,
would you please read the following article by Tom Ridenour about mpc facings, tip openings, etc. I like his explanations and think this article is very useful for all beginners:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/articles/facings.htm
Also, please note that mpc facing charts are not guaranteed to be 100% accurate. IMO, they are approximations at best and one mpc can vary widely depending upon which mpc chart you are using. With the Vandorens, it's easy. On their mpc chart given above by GBK, each mpc has a mm opening listed. (To find the mpc opening in thousands of an inch, simply multiply the mm times 0.03937. For example, the B45 is listed with a 1.19mm opening on the Vandoren site. 1.19 X 0.03937 = 0.0468" or for practical purposes, 0.047".)
Also, as has been noted above, tip openings for the same mpc will vary. This is why it is said so often on this BB to try as many mpcs of the same model as you can.
I hope you find the above useful.
Post Edited (2005-02-21 20:54)
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 21:53
GBK what you say makes a lot of sense. The B-45 did give me a hard time and I felt that I might get a hernia just trying to push air througth it. I will stay with the mp that came with the E-11 even if it is junk. It's easier to play. I use a Vandoren #2 reed and that seems to work fine. Thanks, Carlos
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 22:06
I'm seventy years young and for a while thought that I had the world by it's tail. Reading these posts mde me very humble. "Keep all those cards and letters coming, folks!!!" What an education I'm getting. If I ever learn a tenth of what you guys know I will be very happy. As a begginer I tend to blame the instrument even when all the arrows are pointing at me. On the other hand even as a beginner there is nothing better than to listen to the ones who knows and do a little experimenting of my own. Thanks again. Carlos
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 22:09
Alseg the first I did on the second day of joining this BB was mail some somolians to Mark. The wealth of information, knowledge and friendship that I'm finding here is invaluable. Carlos
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-21 22:15
Thank you Dan. I located and saved the article by Redenour. Will read it later when I have the time. I had no idea of how important and many kinds of MPS there were. I've been reading all the posts and what I'm getting out of it is to be happy with the Buffet mp that came with the instrument, Good or bad as it may be and learn how to play with it and at some time in the future start looking for a better mp. Carlos
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-22 01:32
music_is_life said:
> "but once your muslces get stronger, go back to the B-45."
Which muscles? Perhaps the leg muscles, so you can climb up to the roof of the building and throw the mouthpiece off it...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-22 01:36
>Which muscles? Perhaps the leg muscles, so you can climb up to the roof >of the building and throw the mouthpiece off it...GBK
ah ha ha ha! I need to try this allegedly horrible MP myself! you seem to be pitted against it.
anyway- previous comment:
btw- the hite is a student MP? hm... I wonder, is 8 years enough to retire from a Hite and move onto "bigger and better things"? if so, what do you recommend?
thanks
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-22 01:53
music_is_life:
The B45 is NOT a 'horrible' (your words) mouthpiece. It is just not suited for beginners...GBK
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-02-22 02:59
I was about to buy a B45 once. I was in the music store and I saw my director. He talked me out of it. A while later I talked to people that had one. Boy, was I thankful to him.
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Author: Sea Galan
Date: 2005-02-22 14:06
My goodness, GBK, your distaste for the B-45 has no bounds. I have no opinion at all since being a beginner I don't now better. It could be a personal preference matter. I'm back to the mp that came with the E-11 and will keep it until a learn how to play better (not good, just better) and then start looking around. Would you be interest on buying a slightly used B-45? Carlos
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