 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-02-20 03:05
I've become the music librarian and clarinet teacher/music arranger for the clarinet section somehow.... most likely cause i'm the only one that will do it...... well, I have a question for you guys
What is a reasonable expectation for high school clarinets? How high should they be able to go?
We're playing "Variations On A Korean Folk Song" so it does go pretty high in all the parts. But, except for the first (high Ab) it isn't unreasonabley so.
So I've come to a middle ground that they can take down parts of it an octave at least for now. I just did the arranging today cause they've never had to read down the octave before, needless to say they owe me.
My expectations are much higher then they can realistically be for this group so, what's realistic?
On an unrelated note, I'm not section leader... why is this my problem? heh
thanks
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Author: dummer musiker
Date: 2005-02-20 03:39
If you mean Ab above the staff, that seems quite high for a high student to be expected to reach... Realistically, Id say D or E above the staff, F at most. But Im sure others will have differing opinions....
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-02-20 03:42
Being a HS clarinetist myself, I often play solo pieces (my own music, at home or for contest) on soprano that go up to altissimo G or higher. I would expect all of the better clarinets in my group to know up to at least an altissimo F, possibly including the flats/sharps (they should play their scales at least that high). I would also expect them to be willing to learn any notes they don't know or higher than that if the part calls for it. After you practice and use them often, they become just as natural as middle C. If they don't know the notes, there is a great fingering chart at www.wfg.woodwind.org that has all the notes you could ever possibly want.
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't have arranged it for them. I'd tell them to try being a bass clarinetist and playing soprano parts because the composer didn't make a part for you (which has happened to me with some pep band music at a state band, me and my fellow bass player talked the director into giving us 1st Trumpet music, and even though I didn't really want or have to take it down an octave, my director made us). I would tell them that they should just take it home, learn the fingerings, and play it as written.
But then again, I don't know about your school's music program, so take that into consideration when you set expectations for them. Did they have a clarinetist teach them, or just a band director? We had a flute player as a teacher in middle school, so some of the clarinet players are in all honesty, not very good. In the clarinet section at my school there is a 3rd part girl who I honestly don't know if she can play above altissimo D. And I know that the 1st chair clarinets probably DON'T know above altissimo E or F. My attitude toward it is that any note I can eek out on my bass clarinet (with the distinct possiblity of low Eb...) there is no reason for them not to be able to play it on their sopranos.
hmm.. i just heard a JoDee Mesina song on the radio... when the clarinets start complaining, I might just start singing "my give-a-damns busted..."
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-02-20 03:44
I do not remember Variations on a Korean Folksong going to Ab in the altissimo (5 spaces above the staff) but I could be wrong. I would not expect the average high school player to go above the G (4 ledger lines above the staff). That is pretty standard for seniors in high school.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-02-20 03:46
I've heard that song before by the Tokyo Kosei Wind Orchestra...I have a thought. Maybe you could place the students that are most comfortable playing the original high part play it, and you can equally have the rest of them that aren't as comfortable playing do what you had in mind which was to make the parts an octave lower.
In other words...have half of them playing the original part with the high notes and have the other half play what you had arranged (octave lower than the original). But maybe if the students that are playing the part an octave lower might get comfortable and change to the original even though it might take a while to adjust to the original part.
It was just a thought though maybe other people might have a better idea.
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Author: angelpineapple
Date: 2005-02-20 04:12
When I was in our school's freshman band we played "Variations". We only had two people on first part and our director made them both play the part as written. They had to work on it a little but they we able to get it before contest so I don't think it's asking too much. Nobody on the other parts had any problems at all with it being too high.
In general , I think our directors expect us to be able to play up to an altissimo G.
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-02-20 04:18
for my band its not being able to play it, but playing it in tune that can be tricky......
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2005-02-20 04:27
I'm a senior in HS and have experienced a ton of great band literature especially with high clarinet parts. Typically, you should be able to (or strive to) play at least to high G about the staff.
"Variations on a Korean Folk Song" does indeed go to high Ab above the staff. It isn't terribly difficult to do if you can get the high Eb and F sixteenth notes preceeding it down correctly. You can either overblow a high C into the high Ab, or just use the convienient fingerings for high Ab which can be found amongst this site. That note in that particular place should not be too difficult to do because you're already up relatively high to begin with. If your tongue is high in an "ee" position and your airspeed is constant and intense, you should be able to get that high Ab no problem.
Many, MANY, high school/college level pieces go up that high. I have been fortunate to be in an outstanding high school music program so I experience that type of music a lot. Sousa marches such as "Hands Across the Sea" go up to high A. John Williams' "Hymn to the Fallen" goes up to high Bb's. Yes, the really high ones. It depends.
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-02-20 04:34
BassClarinetGirl, I totally agree w/ what you are saying... problem being like you said that it depneds on the music program, and the fact that they won't learn it either way so I'm just increasing the odds that someone will take the time to do it. I really wish we had more people like you in our band. It is rediculous to me that you don't just learn the music but, I know these people. and I may have to quite you on that last line.....
bflatclarinetist, that is what I'm going to do, finding people to play the original may be hard though.... typically in my band it's two to a part, and few of them are any good
Robert, only the first part goes to the Ab rest of the parts are lower (e's or g's i don't remember which)
mkybrain, exactly man... if I had people willing to learn that would be the next hurdle
I have no problems with helping them, I no how to play their music, learning the first part will take a bit but it is very doable....
You can lead a horse to water but, you can't make them drink
Thanks guys
Post Edited (2005-02-20 05:38)
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-02-20 04:35
The transcription of Dvorak's Carnival goes up to either high a or high b, thank god it isn't sustained much.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-02-20 04:51
fwiw, i expect better beginning students (first year) to hit a high E by the end of the year. not necessarily in tune all the time, but close, and they need to know the fingering and be able to routinely get it to sound. 2nd year students (7th grade) are required to play chromatically to high E for their all region auditions. I have most of them playing 3 octave F scales by the middle of 7th grade. A few (very few) of the 6th graders are all ready doing that.
High school freshmen are required to play E, F, Gb, and G major plus a few of the minor scales 3 octaves, plus a chromatic to high G. This is on their audition for entering 9th grade and also on their high school all region auditions. E.G., if they expect to be in the wind ensemble as freshmen (top band) they need to routinely hit high G by the time they complete 8th grade.
One of the high school class 1 solos (cant remember which one - Poulanc?) goes to a high G# or A. Most freshmen have trouble up that high. The better students learn to go up to high C by the time they are seniors.
many of them of course cant do that - and end up in the 2nd or 3rd band. top band kids need to routinely hit a high G.
paul
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-02-20 05:15
Problem with all this is, you are in our band just because you want to be. No auditions and teh director can't split us, not enough people in some sections
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-20 11:26
Bnautual,
Wait a minute, the librarian should not be making a decision on whether to lower the part an octave, the director should be making that call. You can suggest a possible course of action but you are a student and a member of the section. Your director is paid to make such decisions and has the right as well as the responsibility to do so; you do not!
As far as being the clarinet teacher, does your school board and/or the principal of your school recognize that a student has been given a quasi teaching position? Your school district has an expectation that the director will be doing the things you seem to have been tasked to do or have assumed responsibility for completing. Just because no one else wants to do them is not a good enough reason.
IMHO, something is very wrong here.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-02-20 11:37)
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-02-20 14:11
Hank, Great in theory but, it isn't that practical.... the director can play clarinet on a very low junior high level.... I use the term librarian for lack of a better term, he does the majority of those tasks I just do this kind of thing for the clarinets.
None of the "posistions" I talk of are official, but they are official in that he's well aware of it and for the most part lets me have free rain.
I'm sure he would step in if he felt the need, or saw that I was floundering; The other thing is that I want to go into music ed. and he's well aware of this, so he and I have both pointed out that this is training of sorts.
In all honesty I enjoy working with them and working this stuff out, I agree it isn't the ideal situation though...
The stuff about know one else being willing to do it is true, but the way I phrase it just reflects my frustration for the situation.....
So, those of you that are teachers, This whole task is totally against my beliefs... taking things down an octave just because they won't learn them, it seems so wrong. But, I'm still doing it, being realistic I guess. Is this just a feeling I'll have to get past or am I just in a bad program?
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 15:22
I am trying to get up to high altissimo C (that is, 5 ledger lines, 6 spaces above the staff), but right now the highest I can get is G#/Ab- but not well in tune. My high notes tend to be out of tune, but it gets a little bit iffy around F# and G. I have seen music go as far as that high C, but then again, that's very rare. I think the highest is a G, and that's what a typical highschool student should shoot for.
the standard chromatic scale for all state competitions and etc. is expected to go to altissimo G and you're expected to be able to play a three octave G scale (that's the highest 3-octave scale I've come across- I believe by college you have to be able to play 3 octaves of the A and mabe even B/Bb scales, but I could be wrong, I'm still in highschool, so...)
I would put one or two on a part simply because more than one or two on high notes is horrendously out of tune! even if they learn the notes and fingerings, they wont have good intonation.
-Lindsie
Post Edited (2005-02-20 15:31)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-02-20 17:15
I can't help but wonder where you band director is. One would take into assumption the capabilities of the players in one's group, and select music accordingly. If there are additional skills which need to be developed, it is the director's responsibility to make that happen, or to send the student to their private instructor if applicable. No one should be floundering.
Sue
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-20 17:57
Bnatural,
Your comment "Great in theory but, it isn't that practical.... the director can play clarinet on a very low junior high level...." is missing a step in logic. Who cares how well the director can play clarinet. The director is still the director and you are a student. You have not responsibility or right to offer anything but your opinion when asked. Then you need to deal with your frustrations privately. Otherwise, you are asking for trouble here.
If you choose to not heed my advice that's fine. However, if you are a minor, your parents will be responsible for any turmoil you create. IMHO, you need to cool it and let the band director assume the reponsibility for any decisions just as 3dogmom has suggested.
As a woodwind playing HS band director, I had plenty of students that I taught to play brass instruments earn numerous superior ratings at contest (both solo and ensemble). My HS swimming coach had many All-American and state-champions all the time; I never saw him swim a stroke nor do I even know if he could swim:-). You are placing too much emphasis on your director's clarinet playing ability and missing the part where the director is the person in charge and thus has the decision making power as well as the responsibility.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-02-20 19:11)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-02-20 19:00
The only upper altissimo C I have ever seen is in Baermann 3rd Division and as a 2nd and 3rd year high school student was expected to play them, see end of page 1 line two. With the reed and mouthpiece I use today the best this old retread can do is upper altissimo A and I wouldn't play it in public.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-02-20 19:57
This is slightly off the original topic, but in my opinion these are not notes of which the clarinet should be proud. Certainly you've got to play them if written, otherwise the less, the better, IMHOP. Unless we're trying to generate severe special effects, that is.
Sue
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Author: Marnix van den Berg
Date: 2005-02-20 20:14
3dogmom wrote:
> This is slightly off the original topic, but in my opinion
> these are not notes of which the clarinet should be proud.
> Certainly you've got to play them if written, otherwise the
> less, the better, IMHOP. Unless we're trying to generate
> severe special effects, that is.
> Sue
I have to disagree. Having a firm control of the upper altissimo notes will make the notes below them all the more easy to play with grace and surety. After all the altissimo G/G# are notes which are very common in the classical literature and in modern band literature. If you can 'only just' get to them, you can't count 100% on them when you need it, i.e. in a concert.
Besides, the notes themselves are some of the nicest notes on the clarinet to hear, if well played. Listen to the Spohr concertos for some very dramatic arpeggios and such. These are no 'severe special effects'.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-20 20:18
Bnatural...
Also being a retired high school band director, I can confirm that Hank Lehrer's very sage advice is to be heeded.
Many great teachers are not necessarily world class performers, but are holding their job because of their unique ability to instruct youngsters.
When a few high school students are running the show, it is definitely time for the administration to assess if the educational aspects of the curriculum are in all of the student's best interests...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 20:22
>>"Besides, the notes themselves are some of the nicest notes on the clarinet to hear"
I'm sorry, I just cannot agree with that! call me crazy, but the altissimo notes are far from beatiful, even if played well. They're high-pitched and horrid overtones. but maybe you're a fan of the piccalo and the effer. who am I to talk?!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-20 20:33
music_is_life wrote:
> I'm sorry, I just cannot agree with that! call me crazy, but
> the altissimo notes are far from beatiful, even if played well.
> They're high-pitched and horrid overtones.
Many of the standard works for clarinet test the upper range. If your altissimo notes are "high pitched and horrid overtones" (your words), then perhaps more upper register work is needed on your part.
By the way - Artie Shaw routinely took the clarinet up to C7.
He had no trouble selling millions of recordings...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 20:51
GBK you just love refuting my statements, don't you!
I did say, "even if played well" they sound horrid. who likes listening to high notes? not me.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-20 21:22
music_is_life wrote:
> GBK you just love refuting my statements, don't you!
Only the statements which are lacking in logic, without substance or outwardly wrong.
Expect to be challenged not only by myself, but by any of the other teachers, working professionals or those with more experience in the music field...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-20 21:57
Music is Life,
I think you have taken a tack on altissimo notes that does not ring quite true (pun intended).
With your statement of "They're high-pitched and horrid overtones" what are you saying? High-pitched, yes: horrid, I don't think so.
Are you implying that such notes should not be included in the normal range of the instrument? Please explain your words more clearly so I can better understand your position. I routinely play in that register and have never been accused of a horrid tone (actually, people pay money to hear it). I hope I did not offend anyone.
HRL
PS GBK, you forgot Eddie Daniels and his sensational high register work. Not bad for a conservatory graduate.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 22:02
"Only the statements which are lacking in logic, without substance or outwardly wrong.
Expect to be challenged not only by myself, but by any of the other teachers, working professionals or those with more experience in the music field...GBK"
well then I shall back up my statement- I wouldn't want you people to think I am ignorant or something!
> I'm sorry, I just cannot agree with that! call me crazy, but
> the altissimo notes are far from beatiful, even if played well.
> They're high-pitched and horrid overtones.
1. altissimo is an overtone, you cannot say that is wrong, because they ARE overtones. And they are high-pitched. no arguing that either. beacuse they certainly are not low-pitched.
2. sorry if others do not agree with me, but I do not find an altissimo G (4 ledger lines) "beautiful." Not to say that it is completely unbearable, or that no one can listen to them, I'm just saying that I really can not say that they are "some of the nicest notes on the clarinet to hear"
I like the mid range notes and chalemeau myself. I'd rather not hear altissimo.
3. ok, "horrid" may be wrongly used. and a bit opinionated. sorry.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 22:11
augh! All I'm saying is that I'm the type of person that is driven nuts by the sound of a piccalo, Eb clarinet, or anything high-pitched for that matter! A matter of personal opinion. I am sorry for saying that they are "horrid," sorry for insulting people and making me sound like I don't know what I am talking about. Play away on your altissimo notes!
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 22:13
mkybrain said:
"Do you actually play a soprano clarinet?"
yes, I do (have been for 8 yeras). I also play the bass clarinet and Eb clarinet.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-02-20 22:31
Have you heard the high notes played well? Try attending a concert of a very good professional or college ensemble.
MANY people play high notes nervous. You can see them in concerts. They tense up, their eyebrows go way up high, their arms go in, and they sit two inches taller. This makes for ugly high notes, shrill and horrid. This is not the only way to play high notes. If I'm not careful, mine go this way.
Also, the "default" fingerings for many altissimo notes are less than optimal in many situations. I'd recommend getting the Ridenour book for such occasions.
As someone who likes his high notes better than the mid range, I think perhaps you need a good listen.
Then again, perhaps you just don't like them. After a certain point, if a person has given something a genuine try, I can accept an "I don't like it." I'm just curious why you play Eb if you don't like the high notes.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-20 22:51
Music is Life,
Agreed, horrid was an over-statement.
Also, you could have probably saved yourself some grief on this thread if you had your email address available in your profile. I would have written you off-line with my question. Maybe you want to consider including that information.
HRL
PS BTW you said "well then I shall back up my statement" and you only gave a personal opinion. One must be careful not to confuse personal opinions with facts or common knowledge. These are often quite different.
Post Edited (2005-02-20 22:54)
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 22:53
lol. I don't play the Eb often, especially since it's a school instrument and it's bad quality. perhaps I don't like the way I, or highschool students in general play high notes. I have heard jazzy clarinet solos, Klezmer, and even classical played by pros, including my teacher, and it sounds good. but high pitches bother me a bit.
I will try this book you have suggested. I am completely open to suggestions that will help me to get better. and perhaps I may change my ideals about high notes. I guess I just get too much of this obnoxious kid in my school playing the piccalo in my ear or grabbing a Bb or Eb clarinet and honking out high notes just to be annoying.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-02-21 05:18
I can SORT OF empathize with music_is_life. Having gone through the high school band scene, as most, if not all of us here have, I have heard my share of bad players trying to play altissimo notes.
As far as band literature that goes up to altissimo notes, while I don't recall playing it, and I was playing the first chair part, Variations on a Korean Folksong, Four Cornish Dances (Malcolm Arnold) has the third part going up to high Ab (four ledger lines), a premiere if a piece I did last year during my senior year had us going up to super C (i.e. C7, I guess, although I don't understand the number system to identify notes), a very good, but challenging transcription of a Schubert Symphony (can't remember which one). Then of course there's standard clarinet solos: Rossini Variations goes up to A, the Weber 2 goes up to Bb, the del Aguila concerto goes up to Db (yes, with 6 ledger lines above the staff), Shaw's concerto goes up to C, etc., etc., etc.
It's a shame that you don't like the altissimo register. Admittedly, the chalumeau notes do have a beautiful sound, but it's just as beautiful to hear the clarion and altissimo notes played well. My teacher during high school performed the John Heinz Concerto for Clarinet and Band and, while this was a BEAR of a piece (one of the hardest concertos I have EVER seen), she played it so beautifully. Most of the piece was spent above clarion C. (in the staff).
Well, I hope you can develop a likening for the altissimo register and in the process do yourself some quality practicing while at it.
BTW, as far as what high schooler's should be able to play, my vote goes for as follows:
by freshman year, in a top group, G.
by sophomore year, A.
By senior year, C.
But, like someone already said, because your group is all volunteer it is difficult to set stringent rules on the capabilities of your players. Definitely heed the advice of Mr. Lehrer, as it is the DIRECTOR'S responsibility to change the parts if necessary. He wouldn't have picked the piece if he had little confidence in the group, as what conductor wants to embarass himself in front of an audience??
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