 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2005-02-12 06:04
That is, which clarinets should a player have or have access to to play the vast majority of music for the instrument? I'll venture a guess, and please correct me if I'm wrong, as that's why I'm asking.
Bb
A
Eb
C
Alto
Bass - to Low C
...and from that list, missing are Basset Clarinet/Horn, Ab, and D, as well as the two contras. Any others? I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a thread here) that a very large portion of music written for clarinet was/is for clarinet in A, and that Eb also takes up a decent portion. However, I've heard little to nothing about Ab and D Clarinets, leading me to assume that there's not a whole lot of music written for either, would I be correct in that? Also, on a semi-related note, what is the relation between the Basset Horn and Alto Clarinet? I've seen several references to them being related, and am a bit confused there.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-02-12 09:11
Depends what music you want to play.
For band music, you need Eb, Bb, alto, bass, maybe the two contras.
For orchestral music, Eb, D, C, Bb, A, basset horn, bass, possibly BBb contra. Bass in A as well if you really want to cover all the bases (sorry).
The Ab is used only in a few band contexts. The Bb and A basset clarinets only for a few works of Mozart.
The D is not as rare as you think. It is used by Strauss and others, also for some of the earliest clarinet works.
The basset horn is used by Mozart and Strauss.
The differences between the alto and the basset horn are three:
1) Pitch: basset horn is in F, alto in Eb.
2) Extension: the basset extends to written C, so its lowest sounding note is actually lower than the lowest note of the alto.
3) Bore: the bore of an alto is much wider than a basset. But bassets vary quite a bit between makes.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-12 09:44
Bob, the selection of the six clarinets you mentioned will take you very far, for most people over a lifetime. As an orchestra player I would swap the Alto for a Basset Horn instead. I described the difference between them in a post a few years ago:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=19876&t=19876
The Ab-clarinet is mainly used in Austrian folk music for what I know, maybe someone else know more.
The Basset clarinet is mainly used for playing the Mozart concerto K622 in its original version as well as the Quintet K581. The reason for this is that Anton Stadler, the clarinettist who the concerto was written for had this extension to low C. The construction was probably his own, invented together with his instrument maker Theodore Lotz. Some contemporary composers have written music for the modern version of this instrument.
The A clarinet is standard equipment and used in very much solo literature as well as at least 40% of all orchestral pieces.
The Eb clarinet is standard in band music as well as in orchestras. Since Berlioz: “Symphonie Fantastique”, written in 1831 it has been used in many late romantic symphonies as well as other orchestral pieces and 20th century chamber music. The first time it appears in an opera is in the 1790th in an opera by Cherubini.
The D clarinet is the earliest solo instrument. Johan Melchoir Molter wrote six concertos for this instrument in the 1740th, more than a decade before the first solo concerto for Bb clarinet by Johann Stamitz in the late 1750th. As far as I know the D clarinet is rare in the US, however it’s standard in European orchestras. The most well-known pieces are Stravinsky: “The rite of spring” and R. Strauss: “Till Eulenspiegel” but there are many more.
I hope this enlightens some of your questions.
Alphie
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-02-12 12:52
My teacher would say that with Solfege and Transposition skills in hand you could play almost everything with the B-flat, Eefer and Bass.
I think that's just so she's the only owner of a ContraBass in our area...
*******
I have a buddy that collects this sort of thing and have had opportunity to play some of the less represented members of the clarinet family.
I think the sound of the D clarinet is exquisite, and the A-flat should be sold only by special appointment, after the player passes a physical exam.
And NObody should own a 'paperclip' without a personal Sherpa to carry same.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-12 13:32
I know a few who play the part of the first clarinetist in major orchestras and only use the Bb and A. Sometimes they will play the Eb but that is about it. I don't play orchestral parts so I'm not sure, just what I know and saw in concerts around here.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-02-12 15:36
Ben Armato--career clarinetist with the NY Metro Opera Orch--advises transposing all C and D clarinet parts to the Bb for maintaining acceptable intonation by avoiding having to suddenly switch to a cold clarinet. Herb Blaymann--inventor of the famous stands and also a Met clarinetist--was known as the "Great Transposer" and (I was told) played almost every opera clarinet part on his Bb.
I suspect that the same therory might hold true for playing bass parts in A on your Bb bass. At the very least, learning to transpose is the least expensive route.
JJMs advice--as NYC's most prominet all-around clarinetist--would probably "trump" all of our speculations.........so, whaddaya think, John???
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-12 23:03
I think it's a pity to not care about the differences in sound and character enough to play the correct instruments. It’s not only a matter of notes. It’s a matter of timbre and different timbres represent different expressions. In the classical period composers choose keys according to witch expression they wanted. In “Till Eugenspiegel” Strauss writes for a D clarinet because he doesn’t want the sound of an Eb clarinet. The sound of a D clarinet has more “body”, like a small Bb clarinet. Strauss also writes much for C clarinet. In “The rite of spring” Stravinsky writes for D clarinet in the beginning, then he’s changing to Eb. Transposing should not be used only for the sake of it, or for practical reasons, or just because you can do it. The Chicago people even play German system for German repertoire. That’s really ambitious. That takes more than just learning transposition. That’s like taking things seriously.
I have to admit that I usually transpose C clarinet parts for the only reason that we haven’t found enough good C clarinets because there aren’t any. A good C clarinet should have a narrower bore and be played with a separate mouthpiece. The German C clarinets are good enough however but we all play Boehm system in my orchestra.
I also use D clarinet for the beginning of Ravel’s “Daphnes et Cloe”, mainly to eliminate the risk of not getting it enough fluid. I admit it’s a short cut and a step away from my principles.
Alphie
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-02-12 23:11
While it may be well and good to say that you should play for whatever clarinet is written for (who would argue with that?!), for practical purposes and cost it simply isn't going to work that way especially if you are in a community or local group. Someone like myself who doesn't have the money to spend on a D, C, Ab, contra, bass, etc. it simply isn't feasible. For a professional, one certainly should have all of the required instruments, especially if one plays in a first rate group.
Having said that, it is not detrimental to simply own Bb, A, and Eb clarinets for an orchestral job. Bass if you are the second chair (usually, anyway). That really is all that you need because that's what the vast majority of music calls for. Don't hold me to the truth, but from my knowledge, and I think fairly good knowledge, those four will get you a LONG way. If you have to borrow/rent a D or whatever for a particular piece, then that's fine, but so little pieces call for those oddball instruments. So summary: I'm not at all opposed to transposing for those wierd keyed instruments.
Post Edited (2005-02-12 23:12)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-12 23:41
clarinetist04, Ben Armato and Herb Blaymann were professionals with huge budgets behind them from their institution and I don't like their attitude in this matter if William is right in what he's saying.
Your situation is very different and I think for the gigs you do you'll be fine with the standard equipment. The odd instruments mainly appear in symphonic repertoire where careful concern have to be taken to the composers whishes.
Alphie
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-02-13 04:28
Traditionally, musicians playing clarinet in the opera orchestras of italy played everything on their full boehm Bb clarinet (low Eb Included). I played two seasons in an Italian Opera Orchestra, and the principal clarinetist of the orchestra never used an A clarinet once. All parts are transposed.
How do you know that composers wrote the given parts for the particular instrument. For one, Igor Stravinsky admited he couldn't tell the difference between A or Bb. And since i haven't emailed strauss or mozart lately, i feel that this hypothesis is very suspect. Really only clarinetists claim to be able to differentaite between A and Bb or Eb and D, and i think that if you actually tested this theory out, they wouldn't really be able to tell either.
I gerenally transpose if it makes it easier to play. My teacher at conservatory made me transpose the Rose 32 Etudes into three keys, up a step, up a half step, and down a half step. Transposing is the way to go. DOn't waste your money on expensive gadgets like C clarinets or A bass clarinets...instead, invest...because you play clarinet...you best get some money in the bank for ten yrs from now when perhaps only 5 to 10 orchestras will even survive.
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Author: moose
Date: 2005-02-13 21:56
Rod,
Do you know where/when/to whom and in what context Stravinsky "admitted he couldn't tell the difference between the Bb and A"?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-14 06:40
I know I can't tell the difference between the Bb and A, and I am sure most composers couldn't either. Two Bb clarinetists can sound so different, more than the same player on Bb and A, so I really don't see any reason to play the A and D clarinets other than the extra low note.
Post Edited (2005-02-14 06:44)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-02-14 07:52
The one very big reason to play the A clarinet is to give the clarinetist a break in pieces that would otherwise be written in fiendish keys. Eb parts, though, don't come along often enough to warrant a D, in my opinion.
"you best get some money in the bank for ten yrs from now when perhaps only 5 to 10 orchestras will even survive."
Bah, orchestras have been "dying" for decades now. The $63 least-expensive-tickets-left at the L.A. Phil last night beg to differ. The problem, imho, is that anything less than 50-90 years old is considered "new," and we don't see that as odd.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-02-14 08:25
When I recently played Rite (entirely on my E flat) it was very obvious that Stravinsky had not selected D in part 1 to make the fingerings easier, so he must have had a sound in mind. This leads me to wonder if there is something special about the D. Most people say the C is fundamentally disappointing in tone. The E flat, of course, has a specific effect to produce, but is no charmer in itself. What is it about the D which (perhaps) makes it a particularly attractive instrument?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-14 09:54
RodRubber wrote:
“Traditionally, musicians playing clarinet in the opera orchestras of Italy played everything on their full boehm Bb clarinet (low Eb Included).”
This is another example on why I usually say that “tradition” is mortal for the arts because it slowly takes over and kills it. It’s bad to make an excuse for a bad example with another bad example.
In Mozart’s time the standard equipment was A, Bb and C clarinets for a simple reason that you were only expected to play with key signatures up to one sharp or one flat. Mozart even avoided #-signatures for clarinet. I can only think of two examples: number 10 and 25 from “Cosi fan Tutte” where he writes for A-clarinet in G major. In “Cosi” and “Idomeneo” he even uses clarinets in B-natural. In Mozart’s days the choice of key signature was essential to the character of the piece. Sharp keys had a brighter sound mainly because the strings used more open strings and low positions. Flat keys sounded darker and mellower for the opposite reasons. If playing his music on original instruments you’ll experience how extremely well his writing is for the clarinet. He knew the instrument inside-out and he also knew exactly what he wanted. The choice of clarinet is intimately linked to the choice of key signature and that fact can not be ignored. Today string-players avoid open strings because they can’t vibrate but that’s another discussion.
You say that Stravinsky couldn’t tell the difference between an A and a Bb clarinet. Where did you get that from? He was absent minded and forgot what he had written and could not answer questions about music he had written years back but at the time when he wrote it he was very accurate about what he wanted. He wants us to change to Bb in the last piece of his “Three pieces”. How do you explain that? Or maybe you transpose it? And why does he write for D-clarinet in the beginning of “Rite of spring” and makes us change to Eb later on? The beginning is much easier on Eb but if you’ve ever played it on a D-clarinet you must have noticed that it has much more “body” and gives a more confident presentation of those solos.
It’s very difficult to get evidence in matters like this because the questions have never been asked to the composers themselves but their intensions are clear in the scores and the music speaks for itself. The same goes for Richard Strauss who is The composer who has used almost every member of the clarinet family in his music, at least the ones known from the symphonic repertoire. You can’t ignore these things without violating the context of the music and to do it out of laziness or just simply bragging for your colleagues is almost criminal.
Alphie
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-14 10:26
Graham, as I mentioned earlier there are no French style C-clarinets made with the right proportions. The ones that exist are practically shortened Bb-clarinets with a too large bore for the length of the instrument, all to make it easier to play with the same mouthpiece. This is another example where tonal qualities have had to give way for practicalities.
Exactly why the D-clarinet is more “attractive” than the Eb I can’t really explain. It’s the same difference as between the A and Bb. The pairs have the same bore and are played with the same mouthpiece but of different length so that makes a difference in sound and character in itself. That’s what makes it interesting to experiment with. The C-clarinet is something in between and should have its own bore and mouthpiece. A perfect match to a good C-clarinet would be a B-natural clarinet. The way it was in the 1800th century.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-02-14 10:28)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-02-14 17:41
Hi William and All:
William posts:
"JJMs advice--as NYC's most prominent all-around clarinetist--would probably "trump" all of our speculations.........so, whaddaya think, John???"
"All-around clarinetist" that's a first for me, thanks!
Most of you have said exactly what we do here in NYC. We play our Bb clarinets mostly, and do a lot of transposing for Opera & Symphonic work, as needed. Herb & Ben at the Met we great at it, Stanley does it a bit at the NY Philharmonic, but sticks with his A clarinet as needed.
When it comes to commercial music, it's a slightly different story.
We are often asked to "take it up a whole step, lets try it there!", so transposition is very essential in the studios. On Broadway, they often provide parts in various keys to accommodate the singers, so transposing is not as important, but finding the right clarinet for the part is a challenge. Quite often a transposition puts us in difficult sharp or flat keys (6 or 7 sharps or flats), so an A clarinet is useful, as in "Into the Woods," and an Eb clarinet is essential in my current show, "WICKED." The added advantage to having and using all those extra clarinets is...the money! Each clarinet, in commercial music (not symphonic), plays a double, that can be 20-50% more per horn. So, finding the right instrument for the part not only improves the music, and makes the composer/conductor/orchestrator happy, but can potentially make you much more money. Not a bad deal...it's a "win-win" situation.
I'm not sure I've answered your question about "essential clarinets to own," but suffice it to say; buy as many horns as you can afford, play them well, and you'll eventually need and use them.
Good luck, clarinets can be fun!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-02-14 21:42
Alphie wrote:
"You say that Stravinsky couldn’t tell the difference between an A and a Bb clarinet. Where did you get that from? He was absent minded and forgot what he had written and could not answer questions about music he had written years back but at the time when he wrote it he was very accurate about what he wanted. He wants us to change to Bb in the last piece of his “Three pieces”. How do you explain that?"
My teacher asked stravinsky, and thats what stravinsky told him...good enough?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-02-14 22:36
RodRubber, so what am I supposed to say -"I stand corrected"- I don't think so. Of cause I can't speculate on what Stravinsky actually meant by saying that to your teacher but I wouldn't take a statement like that from him literally. In a given situation he knew the difference for certain.
Stravinsky was famous for expressing himself in a very absent minded way. He once promised the great recorderplayer Frans Brueggen to write a recorder concerto for him. After some years Frans asked him if he had started to write it yet and Stravinsky replayed: "I haven't had the time, but don't worry, I know your instrument well. It's a kind of clarinet."
I'm sure he knew what a recorder is.
Alphie
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